Episode 331 · 27 August 2026 · 59:24
"Trapped in a Life Built Around Other’s Expectations? Here’s the Way Out" - Leanne & Al on Unbehaved podcast
"Trapped in a Life Built Around Other’s Expectations? Here’s the Way Out" - Leanne & Al on Unbehaved podcast
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How Al and Leanne met at the Samaritans
From digital nomads to building a consultancy and podcast
Working with your spouse: agreements and boundaries
Growing a podcast from zero: consistency, love the medium, in-person events
Letting go of the old playbook: stories from childhood
Giving yourself permission to live differently
The power of helping others and the mantra 'nothing's wasted'
Dealing with trolls and the changing workplace landscape
Rapid-fire round: hardest truths, biggest lies, outdated norms
Permission slip to unbehave and wrap-up
Show notes
Trapped in a Life Built Around Others' Expectations? Here's the Way Out — Al & Leanne on Unbehaved
This week, the tables turn. Meghan French Dunbar of the Unbehaved podcast invites Al and Leanne onto her show — and she's the one asking the questions. From how two Samaritans volunteers met on a 4AM crisis line to building a life (and a podcast) that defies every "should," this is a raw, warm, and deeply personal conversation about choosing your own script.
They talk about the stories we inherit from our families, why "money doesn't make you happy" is a lie Al had to unlearn, and the permission slip they'd hand to anyone feeling trapped by other people's expectations. Plus: the one workplace practice Leanne would happily put in the bin (hint: it's four letters long), and why trolls are a sign you're doing something right.
🎙️ The Conversation
The meeting story you won't believe. Al and Leanne met volunteering for the Samaritans in Manchester — and their first real connection came through a 4AM crisis call. Leanne was Al's supervisor; Al took a call from a woman who didn't want to live anymore. An hour later, Leanne got the same call routed to her. It's the most profound, human introduction to each other's character imaginable — and the foundation of a partnership that's lasted nearly 20 years.
The stories we carry. Leanne grew up as the youngest of three girls with a father from Liverpool who believed you "pick your profession, work hard, and stand on your own two feet." Al's parents pushed education hard — but a deputy headmaster's miserable life made him think, "There's gotta be a better life than that." Both had to notice which inherited scripts didn't fit — and quietly let them go.
The permission slip. If they could give everyone one permission to "unbehave": Stop behaving in the way you think other people expect. Whether it's your career, where you live, or how you define success — the only script that matters is the one you write yourself.
On trolls and evidence. Leanne only rises to trolls who question the evidence — and she'll happily bring receipts. Al's take? When the trolls show up, it means you're getting somewhere.
The outdated norm. Leanne's answer is immediate: Myers-Briggs. "For the love of everything in the world, can we put Myers-Briggs in the bin?" Al adds return-to-office mandates and the binary thinking that's crept into workplace debates.
💡 Key Takeaways
- Nothing's wasted. Even the work that feels like a detour feeds something. The lesson: keep paying into your bank account before you try to make a withdrawal.
- Stop performing to expectations. The fastest way out of a life built around others' scripts is to notice the story — and give yourself permission to write a new one.
- Evidence beats opinion. Whether you're dealing with trolls or workplace dogma, bring the receipts. And if it's just someone's opinion? Let it go.
More From This Episode
- Listen to Meghan French Dunbar's Unbehaved podcast wherever you get your podcasts
- Find Al and Leanne: search "Truth, Lies and Work" anywhere — or head to the connect link below
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner, and this week's a little bit different. We're taking a break from our usual format as part of our summer sessions, and instead we're sharing an episode from a podcast we love. It's called Unbehaved Hosted by the brilliant Meghan French Dunbar, MFD. She was on the show a couple of weeks ago, I think.
Leanne ElliottMeghan is awesome, and she turned the tables on us and asked the questions this time. We talk about how we met, how we built the number one management podcast in the UK— not so humble brag right there— and what it actually looks like to stop making decisions based on what other people think.
Al ElliottAnd if you like what you hear, which I'm sure you will, go find Unbehaved wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe. Meghan's incredible and her show deserves your attention.
Leanne ElliottIt does. So here's our conversation with Meghan after a very short break and word from our lovely, delicious sponsors.
Al ElliottMm, tasty. Does your experience with AI sound a little like this? You prompt for 20 minutes, the output is polished, is confident, and is completely flipping useless. Well, that's what happens when AI doesn't know anything about your business.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. But you know what does know something about your business?
Al ElliottHubSpot.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's AI. It works with your actual customer data, every interaction, every signal your team has generated over time. So instead of prompting and hoping, you ask once and ship it.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. And I remember distinctly, I was sitting in front of the deputy headmaster. I must have been, what, 19 on my first teaching practice? And deputy headmaster, we're in a school, we're doing 8 weeks teaching practice in school. And the deputy headmaster says, if you work as hard as you seem to be working right now, Then in about 20 years' time, you can be sitting in my seat and you can be earning upwards of £28,000 a year. And I sat there and I went, fuck this. I'm like, there's gotta be a better life. There's gotta be a better life than that.
Meghan French DunbarHello there, lovely human, and welcome to Unbehaved. I'm Meghan French Dunbar, and that was Al Elliott, one half of the extraordinary duo I get to talk to today. The other half being his wife, Leanne. And one of the reasons I'm so excited about this episode is that Al and Leanne are going to walk us through what it actually looks like to stop making decisions based on what other people think. And I don't know about you, but this is something that shows up in so many aspects of my life, that tension where you know you want to do something, but then you start questioning yourself because you're worried about what other people might think. Maybe it's the job you want to leave, but you don't quite know what your colleagues are gonna say. Maybe it's the sabbatical you'd like to take, but you're worried worried you'll be judged for taking time off, or the Substack or the podcast or the content that you wanna start putting out there, but you're worried about what other people are gonna think about what you have to say. Whatever it is, I hear this from so many people that they aren't living the life that they actually want because of other people's opinions. Today, Al and Leanne are gonna show us what it looks like to listen to what you want instead of what others want for you. And for them, it's resulted in the two of them leading a pretty epic life. Together, they co-host the UK number one management podcast, Truth, Lies and Work, which they record and produce from wherever they want. In the last decade, they've lived in different European countries pretty much every few months. So today, I got to turn the tables on them and ask them the questions. And our conversation surfaced one of the most touching meet-cute stories I've ever heard that I totally wasn't expecting. It also brought up refreshingly honest wisdom for anyone who's trying to build something from the ground up, whether it's a small business, an art studio, anything in between.
Al ElliottYeah.
Meghan French DunbarWe also talk about one potentially overlooked practice that they lean on, and I do as well, that has become foundational to their success. One quick heads up before we dive in. This episode opens with a story about a suicide-in-progress call from Al and Leanne's early days as volunteers at the Samaritans, a crisis listening service in the UK. If that's not something you're up for today, feel free to skip ahead. It's at about the 6-minute mark in the interview. Resources for that are also in the show notes. Otherwise, let's get into it. From where I'm sitting here in Boulder, Colorado, it seems as though you two have nailed life. You live wherever you want, you work together, you're just like this free-flowing, gorgeous number one show in the UK, all the things. What the fuck? How did you do this? And I want the unedited version of how you built The number one management show in the UK as a couple. Go.
Leanne ElliottPure dumb luck after one too many whiskeys.
Al ElliottYes. 100%.
Meghan French DunbarSame answer as all entrepreneurs. Okay, cool. Yeah.
Al ElliottWell, Leanne, tell the story.
Leanne ElliottWell, I mean, there's a whole story before what happened before Truth, Lies and Work, but the point— Can we—
Meghan French Dunbarlet's do that. We're going to start there. Do that.
Leanne ElliottI want it all.
Al ElliottWell, I was 4 years old when I first discovered—
Leanne Elliottno.
Al ElliottWhere's a logical place to start, Leanne?
Meghan French DunbarHow did you two meet? And then how did the show become a thing?
Al ElliottThis is a good story. Go, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottSo I met Al when we were both volunteering for a charity called the Samaritans in the UK. We worked at the Manchester and Salford branch, and it's a listening service for people who are in distress or despair and maybe feeling suicidal. And I went into an overnight shift with 11 PM till 7 AM. And I met in the corridor a guy called Rob, who was the chairman of our branch. And he was like, all right, and you're right, oh, you're on with Al Elliott tonight. And I was like, yeah, yeah, not met Al before. He's like, I think you'll like him. I went, oh yeah, is he all right, guys? Like, yeah, yeah, he's like into property and he's really sound, quite funny. I think you'll really like him. I said, oh yeah, nice. It's always good to do an overnight shift with somebody and get on with, isn't it? He went, no, but I think you two will really get on. I think you'll really like him. I was like, all right, Rob, this isn't blind date.
Meghan French DunbarNo pressure.
Leanne ElliottNo pressure. So I walk into the room and I lay eyes, and this sounds so cheesy, but I looked at him, I was like, huh, okay, yeah, all right, there's something here. Okay. Um, so we, we sat down, we're on separate phones doing our calls, and then Al got a call about 2 AM.
Al ElliottMaybe it's 4 AM.
Leanne ElliottWas it?
Al ElliottIs it the call we're talking about?
Leanne ElliottThe call.
Al Elliott4 AM.
Leanne ElliottYou take it from here.
Al ElliottSo 4 AM, I get a call and I was— Leanne was my boss, basically. I'm nearly 50, Leanne's just turned 40, so there's a big age difference. Leanne's basically my boss, my supervisor for the night, and she's looking out for me. She's training me on this. I get a call. It's the most serious call. You only get maybe one a week, maybe over what? Probably 1,000 calls, one a week. It is a suicide in progress. And by the way, you may have to put some triggers on this, I don't know.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Al ElliottBut basically, and this woman said, I don't want to live anymore. And I won't go into too much detail, but basically it was a huge, long, hour-long call where She was in the process of ending her life. And I was like, oh my God, what do I do? So I threw a paper airplane at Leanne, where she opened it up and it said, help. And then she came across, and she's able to listen in but not speak. So she was giving me notes on what to say and stuff. Anyway, so without going too much into the gory details, the line went dead. I ended up, after about 5 minutes of silence, I put the phone down, and I'm like, wow.
Meghan French DunbarWow.
Al ElliottAnd so I was like, one of the most, like, impactful, like, moments of my life. And I was like, oh my God. So I went to the kitchen, we got a cup of tea. Leanne's like, how do you feel? And I'm like, I don't know, because it's never happened to me before. Anyway, so Leanne was great. She was like talking me down. She was asking me questions about it. And basically the idea of Samaritans is that if you take a difficult call, then another Samaritan will ask you about the call, and then you— they almost like take some of the pressure off you.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo anyway, that all happened. Um, about an hour later, Leanne got a phone call.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So Samaritans is a national organization, but they typically try and route calls to their local branch. But on an overnight shift, that's hard 'cause only maybe 30% of the branches in the country are, are open 24 hours. So it's really rare that you hear any outcome to a suicide in progress, either way, whatever happened. And it's very rare that you'll get a call back into the same branch on an overnight shift. The phone rings at about 6:30. 6 AM. I answer. It's the same woman that Al had been speaking to, and she said, I don't know if it's possible, but if you can find the man I was chatting to, can you please tell him thank you? I've woken up, I've been sick, and I feel hope. I've called an ambulance and I'm gonna try and live. And every goosebump on me just popped out of my body. And Al was on another call, so I couldn't even grab him over to listen. So I probably didn't talk to her for a couple of minutes. The ambulance arrived and And took her away. So afterwards, we'd shared this. Not only this first incredibly— and it sounds so weird to people who maybe aren't ingrained in Samaritan's philosophy, but it's— we're trained it's a privilege to share that vulnerable moment with somebody. So to have shared that moment, but then to have shared an outcome that we rarely, rarely hear about, and for it to be such a positive outcome. was very much a bonding experience.
Al ElliottSo that was the, uh, that was the beginning. So there you go. That's probably not the story you expected, was it?
Meghan French DunbarThat's the best meeting story I've ever heard. I'm so glad we went there. Also, how old were you two when you met?
Leanne ElliottI was 22.
Al ElliottSo I was 29, I think.
Meghan French DunbarWhat type of humans are you that at 22 and 29, you're volunteering to stay up all night And help people who are in crisis. I mean, I know that you are wonderful human beings, but this is just deepening my love for you. I'm so appreciative of this. I need to hold my hand up, Meghan, because my reason was not selfless.
Leanne ElliottAl's reason was, and he'll go into it. I was doing my undergrad in psychology at the time, and I thought I wanted to go into clinical counseling, and I was advised by someone at my university to join a listening-type service. So I joined the Samaritans. So quickly realized I didn't want to go into that area of psychology simply because the emotional labor is so high, but loved the work and stayed with Samaritans for 5 years, long after I graduated. But my initial reason for joining wasn't that altruistic, whereas Al's was.
Al ElliottNo, she's, she's being British. It was probably 70% altruistic and 30%— what, what's the opposite of altruistic? Whatever that is. Edit that back in. Put a fancy word in there, Meg.
Leanne ElliottBut Al joined in the Year of the Volunteer, right?
Al ElliottWell, yeah, but just, just really briefly, it was like the Year of the Volunteer, 2007, I think it was, the UK. And they were like, you should go and volunteer. It was like tithing of your money, which I I think some churches do. 10% of your money goes to the church. They were like, well, what if 10% of your working week went to volunteering? And so I did a couple of volunteering things. But anyway, being British, let's move on because that's a cool story and we're very proud of the way we met and we don't often tell that story. In fact, this might be the first time, Meghan, we've told that story on somebody else's podcast. Yeah.
Meghan French DunbarI'm so honored. So how did we get From there to where we are now, 'cause this is what now, almost 20 years later?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Oh my God.
Al ElliottOh, thank you for that, Meghan. Yeah, we feel good.
Meghan French DunbarMy husband and I just had the 17th anniversary of our first date. We can be, what, I'm not even gonna say middle-aged. I love this age. This is the fabulous age. We can be fabulous age together.
Al ElliottYou beautiful women are very far from middle-aged. I am knocking on the door of 50, so I am definitely middle-aged. I can't get outta bed without making noises. But, um, real quick, real quick, fast forward that. Please don't clip that and take that out of context. So really fast forward.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al Elliott2007 to about 2012-ish. I'm unsure. We were like dating, living together, got married in a place called Gibraltar, which is a tiny little enclave in the corner of Spain. Got married there, um, had a reception in Spain, um, and then a year later decided to just, uh, just to basically put our life into the huge blender of random— randomity and say, right, we're going to go live in Europe. And so we went to Spain and lived there for 5 years. And, and then Brexit happened. Now, if I'm sure that your listeners know Brexit, but just in case someone's not sure, essentially meant that us Brits couldn't live in the UK longer term.
Leanne ElliottIn Europe. You can still live in the UK.
Al ElliottThat would be weird.
Meghan French DunbarIt's like, that wasn't my understanding, but—
Al ElliottMaybe I'm not qualified to explain what Brexit is. Leanne, please take over quickly.
Leanne ElliottIt just meant it'd be much harder for us to stay in Europe long-term. So, I had this idea of like, well, what if, because we knew it'd take a couple of years for Brexit to go through, what if we tried to visit every country in Europe before it becomes really hard for us to do that? So, we became what the kids call digital nomads.
Meghan French DunbarMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd it was meant to be a 6 to 12 month thing. We did it for 6 years in the end, which was awesome. We traveled around Europe, went to Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand. It was, it was wonderful. We were working remotely. Um, and working remotely separately. And then around COVID time, we started working together. We set up Oblong, our consultancy, and then Truth, Lies and Work came from that.
Meghan French DunbarOn the website, it says that Leanne, you're the expert host and Al, you're the unexpert host. And there's a bit of a research and data and the real-world experience side of things. How did the paths deviate and then come back together in terms of what you both were doing at that time?
Leanne ElliottSo, I was mainly during that time working freelance for an Australian company doing their recruitment management training for a fully remote team. And around COVID time, unsurprisingly, I was getting asked more about remote work and how to manage teams in that way, which is when I kind of started freelance. And when Al and I would kind of, we'd always talk about work as any couple does over a glass of wine in the evening.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd we realized that actually a lot of what we do is the same thing, but coming from a different perspective. Al was very much into sales and marketing. He's a serial entrepreneur. What we're talking about is how do we sell a dream to people? How do we engage people in a product or an organization that we want to sell? How do we create an experience for them that they love and they thrive from? So, it became clear that actually we're talking about the same thing, but from a different perspective. And my concern with organizational psychology is always that sometimes the lack of commercial focus it can bring to things, and therefore not necessarily be as relevant to smaller organizations. So, we saw this as an opportunity to kind of bring our skills together and make something that kind of lived in either very large corporate world or public sector, a way of working available to entrepreneur-led businesses that are agile and enjoy change and experimenting with new things.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Leanne Elliottto take on this kind of best practice of Oxide and really run with it. So that was how we saw the crossover.
Al ElliottJust to add to that, the books that I read, Leanne thinks are boring and ridiculous because they're all about how you can make $1 million in an hour. And the books Leanne reads bore me to tears because they talk about, they use words in statistics I don't even understand the words. And the people who've got more, people who write them have got more names, more letters after their name than are in my name. And so we were like, hang on a minute. I translate what Leanne does, but Leanne keeps me on track to ensure it's based, it's rooted in science. And that seemed to be a really, really good partnership. And it seems to have done us quite well, I think.
Meghan French DunbarSo as you're thinking about building a consultancy together and doing the show, every single human around you is probably like some version of, what are you guys thinking? Like, don't work with your spouse. It's a terrible idea. How was it just imagining, I'm going to do this with you? And did you have any agreements at the beginning about how the relationship would continue and how you would cultivate it while also working together?
Al ElliottOoh, that's a good question. Do you wanna go first?
Leanne ElliottI think from a starting point, Al, we're in a slightly different position than maybe the majority of couples that might go into business together, because I mentioned we're digital nomads. So we were traveling together, obviously living together with not much of kind of a social network around us for big chunks of time. So we're very used to spending every hour together. And while not working with each other, literally working next to each other. So we were already kind of used to that level of intensity, I guess, of in terms of time spent in a relationship and in a, in a kind of work environment together. And then when we started, it was pretty soon after actually what we started working together that Al Like, I think we might need to talk about boundaries, which was impressive as a psychologist, him saying that.
Al ElliottI know, I know. I didn't really understand what the word was, but I think what was interesting was that we kind of said, right, okay, well, I'm in charge of this bit and I have a budget for this bit and I can do this bit. And Leanne's in charge of this bit and she does that bit and that's her realm. However, what's been interesting over the last 5 years Is that, and I'm gonna use another word, I'm not sure I know what it means, but osmosis, where almost like Leanne will, I start saying stuff and Leanne's like, how the hell do you know that? I'm like, because I've sat opposite you for 310 episodes and you've talked amazing stuff. And then she'll go, I've got a great idea for a potential product. I'm like, how do you know how to create a product? She's like, well, because I've been with you for 17, 18 years. But the key thing is define your boundaries, allow osmosis, and then don't hold on to that. Don't make your entire ego around, I'm the sales and marketing guy. I'm the product management guy. Because then if someone, if your partner comes in and goes, I've got a great idea, your instinct is to go, no, no, you stick to your lane, you do your thing. But if you've got a great relationship and a great working relationship, you're like, cool, tell me. And you're a bit like, I wish I saw that, but God, I'm glad one of us did.
Leanne ElliottAnd one of the best things we did in terms of trying to separate work and life, and we're not always very, very good at it, But one thing we've consistently done for the last 5 years at least is of an evening, if we're just sat chilling out, Al will say, or I will say, are you okay to talk about work? And it's absolutely fine for the other person to go, no, can we talk about it tomorrow? Yep, no worries. If it's out of hours, you need to ask permission, and if permission isn't granted, that's okay.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWelcome to the break.
Al ElliottYes, my favorite part of the show. They, these, these 2 idiots have stopped talking.
Leanne ElliottYes, I want to tell you about my new No, that's a lie. It's my old favourite podcast.
Al ElliottI've been on this for a while. Didn't know where that was going. Didn't know where that was going.
Leanne ElliottIt is called I Digress. It is hosted by Troy Sandage, and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottYes, it's got shows that are under 30 minutes, and I Digress helps eliminate complexity, complications, and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies that achieve scalable and sustainable success. At least that's what it says here.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you do want to hear a really personal story, go to episode 136. This is Troy's honest account of fatherhood, killing hustle culture, and what really matters when you stop performing and start living with intention.
Al ElliottListen to I Digress wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottThat concludes the break.
Al ElliottLet's return to the scheduled programming.
Leanne ElliottBack to the studio.
Meghan French DunbarSo you're like, we're gonna do a podcast. And at the moment I came on your show, it was the number one management show in the UK. I'm sure that just happened overnight. Just super easy success. Like it was just luck. How, how did you actually do that? Especially for like baby podcasters such as myself who are dreaming of one day having a full-time podcast and getting paid to do this thing that I love. I mean, that we love. I'm asking for all the other podcasters.
Al ElliottYeah.
Meghan French Dunbarpodcasters, not myself. I'm totally asking for myself. How do you stick with it at the beginning in the building stages where you have a story of how much momentum you, quote, should have and all the things you should be doing and actually get to a place where you have significant numbers and are making a serious impact?
Al ElliottCan I take this for a second?
Leanne ElliottPlease do.
Al ElliottSo first of all, if you ask us how we grew from zero to where we are now, 6 figures. We have no frickin' idea.
Leanne ElliottWe've got guesses.
Al ElliottWe've got guesses, but it's like the whole thing. I'm sure it was someone famous, very clever, who said something like, I know that 10 of my advertising dollars work out of 100 work very well. I just don't know which 10. And I think it's kind of that. So we just threw an awful lot of the proverbial at the wall. Some of it stuck. Leanne is phenomenal on LinkedIn. And I think that's one thing which really has helped. There's lots more we can do. We should be clipping a lot more. We should be posting a lot more. What I can say though, categorically, is the majority of baby podcasters get to episode 30. And when I say baby podcasters, I'm using your words. I'm not being in any way pejorative. But a lot of people who are nascent podcasters get to episode 30 and they go, it's not working, let's not do it. And we got on our first podcast, we got to episode 120. And nobody was listening. We got like 20,000 listeners in total over 3 years or something. But we loved having our podcast. We loved doing it. I'll be honest, probably fully 60 of them, we were quite drunk when we did it, but we really enjoyed the medium and, and we built our, we honed our craft.
Leanne ElliottJust to be clear, our first podcast was around travel when we were nomading. It wasn't that we were talking about serious business stuff, just over a couple of bottles of wine. We were talking about travel.
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. One bottle of wine. Let's just tone that down. But with the second one, I'll be honest, one of the things that kept us going was that very early on, I applied for the HubSpot Podcast Network. Like, I can't remember what it was called, but it was kind of a bit like, you know, like VC where you get like seed round and then you get this round and that round. I can't say I was drunk because that's gonna make us sound terrible now after I said all this. I was exuberant and cocky, and I jumped on the website and I applied for it. And to my surprise, they replied. And it wasn't the reply I was expecting, which was gonna have profanity. And so they said, yeah, we'd like to talk to you more about this. So we chatted more, chatted more, chatted more. And because we went on maybe about episode 9 or something, that's what kept us. We had to do it because we were contracted to do it. The fact is, we probably would've kept doing it, but I can't imagine we would've tried to make it better every single episode. Whereas, genuinely, from episode 20, And we've looked at every single facet of it, and we want every episode to be 1% better than the previous episode. And that's what strives us. And also, we do, because we check— the way we talk on microphone is the way we talk in real life. And that's kind of what, when people meet us, that's the biggest thing they say is like, you're just exactly the same as you sound on the pod. And we're like, yeah, because we enjoy doing it. This is not, oh my God, I'm gonna sit down, record a pod, and I'm so— I hate my own voice. Everybody hates their own voice. Not me, 'cause I— my voice is sexy.
Leanne ElliottYou've got a great voice for podcasting.
Al ElliottBut everyone hates their own voice, and to edit it, it's just so much work. The fact is, you've gotta fall in love with the medium. And if you hate it, it's like writing blogs. People who don't like writing, don't like writing blogs, you're not gonna stick at it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIs my thought.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you absolutely have to love it. And I think that's where— 'cause you need the consistency, you need that momentum to keep going. And all right, not everyone is gonna be able to just apply to a network and get on it to get the, But the initial funding and accountability and support and mentoring for it, we were very fortunate to get that so early in the— at the stage Truth, Lies and Work was at. But what you can replicate for that is accountability. Partner up with other podcasters who are trying to build a show as well and commit to the schedule you're going to publish and how you're going to do it. Network is so important. Just talk to anyone who loves podcasting, wants to be on podcasting, will share your podcast with everybody.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOne thing that worked really well for us was in-person events. We did 3 in-person events over the space of 12 months where we literally turned up with a pod, recorded the podcast from there. And I think each event, I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say it doubled our numbers each time because it's so many eyes in our audience. It's wellbeing. It was people and culture shows. They were our audience, our people listening to us do what we do in real life. And that made a huge difference. different. But the reality is, we love it. We have so much fun doing it. And it's really, really fricking hard. And there's as many days that we don't want to do it as we do. Because when you're 310 episodes in, it gets a little bit relentless. But you've got to find that joy, and you've got to find the conversation you're excited about.
Meghan French DunbarI think the thing that— about the show is there is the research and the real-world experience. So, there's the business acumen where you're getting insights And there's humor and warmth and quirkiness and playfulness. I feel like it speaks to the broader theme that I see from both of you, which is simply letting the old playbook go. This idea that business has to be serious. And there's the old paradigm story that you need to have a stable job and live in the same place and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you all haven't done that either. So this goes all the way back to your childhood. What was the story of success? that you were handed as a child and how has it evolved to present day and why?
Al ElliottOh, man.
Leanne ElliottI think, I think I have clear ones actually that if you need some time to think.
Al ElliottYeah, I do.
Leanne ElliottSo 2 things that stand out. I was, I was the youngest of 3 girls and my dad was born in Liverpool in England to Irish parents who were Catholic. And they got divorced. So he came from a very poor upbringing and one with a lot of judgment at the time in terms of being a, you know, solo parent family, Catholic, Irish. There's a lot in there. So he worked really, really hard to get an apprenticeship, to get himself to university, to become an electrical engineer and do incredible things. So I always say my dad is the first feminist that I ever met because he was like, he's got 3 girls and you can do whatever you wanna do. You don't need to rely on a man. You don't need to rely on anybody.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottYou pick your profession, you work hard, you make sure you can stand on your own 2 feet. And his, his belief was education was behind that. So, education was important. We were expected to go to school, we were expected to go to university, we were expected to pick a profession. And we all did. My eldest sister is a headteacher, my middle sister is a chartered accountant, I'm a psychologist. So, education was baked in, and that was a lever of success. The second thing is that before I was born, there's a bit of an age gap between me and my sisters. Before I was born, my family spent 5 years living in Saudi Arabia, where my dad worked as an electrical engineer. And the stories I heard from that and the adventures they had living abroad was just something I always wanted to do. And that for me was another kind of pillar of success, to be able to work abroad and take your life somewhere else and experience that whilst you're building your career was something I always wanted to do. So, I guess they're the 2 things for me from my childhood that I took with me. What was yours?
Al ElliottI suppose similar kind of thing with education. They were saying it's very important, but my parents were pushing me in, and I say pushing me, they were encouraging me to become a teacher. And because they were like, that's a good profession. And bear in mind, this is like the early '90s. I did my GCSEs, which is what you would call like year 11, would you over there? It's kind of like freshman. I don't know what it is, maybe about 16 years old. So I was doing my GCSEs and I did all right in them. And then they said, right, you're gonna be a teacher. I was like, okay. And they went, right, so go and do these A-levels. So I went and did these 3 A-levels, 4 A-levels, and I failed 3 of them and got an E in maths. So, so I was going to be, well, I'm a maths teacher because that's the only A-level I passed. So, so I scraped into university in the north and they were like, okay, well, yeah, I suppose you can come in. And I remember distinctly, um, I was sitting in front of the deputy headmaster. I must have been, what, 19 on my first teaching practice?
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Al ElliottAnd deputy headmaster, we're in a school, we're doing 8 weeks teaching friends in school, and the deputy master says, if you work as hard as you seem to be working right now, then in about 20 years' time, you can be sitting in my seat and you can be earning upwards of £28,000 a year. And I sat there and I went, fuck this. I'm like, there's gotta be a better life.
Leanne ElliottHard pass.
Al ElliottThere's gotta be a better life than that. And I hate kids as well. So, um, I was like, yeah, let's, let's not do that. So I just blew it all up, left university and went into sales for like 3 years, did door-to-door, did phone, all that kind of stuff. Started a business, went well, didn't go well, went bankrupt, all that. The story is on the episode you referenced when we first chatted. But that's basically, I was like, no, I'm not having that kind of life. Thank you very much.
Meghan French DunbarWere there any stories that you were handed as children, adolescents that you had to let go of, or that held you back from actually living into the life that you have right now? Yes.
Al ElliottNow, I'm so gonna be so careful because I, when I say this, I'm not blaming anyone in my family, but we came from a family where it, where it was forbidden to talk about money, particularly at the dining table. Uh, it was rude to ask how much someone earned. Um, that money was something which was like this thing that nobody ever talked about. And I have to be honest, that is something I rebelled so hard against and went way too far the other way. But I rebelled so hard against, because that story of money is dirty. And I had to work with, like, I read something, I'm sure it was like Norman Vincent Peale or Jim Rohn or Tony Robbins or someone like that, where they were saying, look at how people you're around describe money. They say he or she is filthy rich.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottYou know, they say money is the root of all evil, when in actual fact, supposedly the quote is, the love of money is the root of all evil. And there's resentment and all that, and you have to let all that go. And it was Deepak Chopra, I think, who said that money is like a river. It just, as soon as you try and keep it, it stagnates and it just damages the entire sort of like cash fund. But if it's like a river where you think you can just dip in anytime you want, take as much as you want, then it's cool. So that's why you should, when you get money, spend money, give it away. Don't feel it as something which you're never ever gonna get again.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat was really fricking tough. Took me 10 years of reading all these wanky self-help books, of trying to understand and change my language and my thoughts around that. And I don't blame my parents, don't blame my family in any way. They grew up and they, you know, and it's like the way stories are handed down. But that was mine. Leanne, sorry, you've probably got a better one.
Leanne ElliottNot at all. I think that's much better. No, I think the only— I was pretty fortunate, actually, as I said, as the youngest. And by the time it got to me, my parents were like, whatever, as long as you go to university, you're cool. So, I think for me, Probably the only thing was around having a family. I guess I came— I'm an old millennial, you know, I'm 41. So it was kind of, I always assumed that I was gonna have kids. I'd, you know, go to school, go to uni, get a job, have children, maybe go back to work part-time or try and figure out that dynamic. And as I got older, I guess I was waiting for that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottthat desire to kick in that I'm ready to have kids, I want to have kids now. And it never really did. And I felt really uncomfortable, probably from the age of maybe like 28 to 35, when it's like, this is the time, and it never kicked in. And I remember driving to see my friend, and my mum was with me, and she just had a baby. And my mum just said to me, do you ever think you'll have children? And at this point, I think I was, I was probably about 35. I said, I'm wait— I've been waiting for feeling to kick in, that maternal instinct to kick in, and it just hasn't happened. And she went, that's okay. And I think that was the moment I was like, okay, maybe it is okay. All right then. And then since then, it's not— yeah, it's just been something that isn't, isn't going to be a part of, of my life. And at this point, I don't think it was ever meant to be. But when I was younger, I guess I always assumed or felt pressure that it should be.
Meghan French DunbarI think things like that, the stories where it's like we need someone else to just say, that's okay. And sometimes it's ourself who needs to say, that's okay. for you to just do the thing that you want to do? I mean, where do you live currently?
Al ElliottBosnia and Herzegovina, near Croatia.
Meghan French DunbarEvery time I talk to you, you're in a different place. Even that, just saying it's okay to live wherever you wanna live and explore and adventure. Do you feel like it's been more that you have had to give yourselves permission to do this, or has it ever been something that you've worried about?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure I've ever worried about that.
Al ElliottI've worried about it.
Leanne ElliottHave you? Oh, you go first then.
Al ElliottI've worried that Our friends, a lot of our friends will describe our life as going, oh, it sounds amazing. I mean, it's not for me. And it's like, that is a very odd thing to hear. Someone go, well, it really clearly sounds cool, not for me. And so it took me a long while to realize that they were essentially closing that door so that they didn't feel like they were missing out. Or this is my interpretation. This is so— it's typical. This is typical white male privilege, isn't it? Deciding how other people are thinking. But this is what I was thinking, is that potentially that's what they're doing. just like I've probably done the same with children, and go, it's not for me. Because then I've gone, right, I don't need to worry about that anymore. I don't need to regret it. I'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. And so, it's like, okay, cool. So, that's kind of, I suppose, the bit that did bother me at first. And also, I was one of those expat idiots who'd come back and go, oh, I've forgotten the name for this. What is it? Is it a pen? Is it pen? I only know the Spanish word for it. You know what I mean?
Meghan French DunbarI was trying to make it work.
Al ElliottWork too hard. Um, so yeah, I was pretty unbearable.
Leanne ElliottSo I don't know, I think during that time maybe it was my, my context, because as I mentioned, I was working for a fully remote business, and, and the MD and her husband were in business together and working remotely and traveled, and members of the team traveled and lived in different places. So I was in an environment where there was lots of people doing it, so it didn't feel like I was very unique in that. Within our friendship group, yes, but not in terms of of people in my work world.
Meghan French DunbarHow is your livelihood made up right now? And are you working full-time, full-time? What does a typical day or week look like?
Al ElliottWhen we first started doing the pod, we were doing, we're probably doing 30 hours each a week, weren't we, on the podcast? And I was like, oh man, I was like, I'd got Final Cut Pro up and I got sidechains on and I was adding effects and I was cutting everything. And we have realized that there's actually an 80/20 to that. And we managed to get it down to probably, would you say about 10 to 15 hours each a week?
Leanne ElliottYeah, probably. Typically Monday and Tuesday is our podcast days, aren't they? Where we'll record, we do 2 episodes a week, so we'll record those, prep whatever we need to for the coming week. We'll maybe do 2 to 3 interviews a week. So yeah, yeah, it's part-time, the podcast. Consultancy rolls in and rolls out, as the nature of any consultancy owner or freelancer will know. Sometimes it's busy, sometimes it's not. Um, but I think that the key thing for us is in that downtime.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Leanne Elliottis constantly thinking one of 3 things. How do we improve the podcast? How do we continue to innovate it and make it interesting so people still listen? What formats are getting tired in terms of the podcasting world? How do we change those? How do we appeal to a broader audience? Do we go back to video? All of these big questions. We probably spend as much time talking about the podcast as we do creating it in terms of how we can make it better, how we— who we want on as guests, what we want to be talking about. And that will include a lot of research, a lot of of reading what's happening in news and the world of work. So, we're kind of on top of that. The second thing is around products for our consultancy clients. So, we have our own employee engagement product that we've had for a while. We're currently developing a management training product, which has been taking up some of our time. And the final thing, really, if I'm being honest, is around life planning. It's like, well, how and where do we want to live is a fair conversation we have to have most weeks, especially when you live abroad and you're battling with visas and the Foreign Office doesn't know when you have leave the country for 3 months and go to Bulgaria. Like some of our choices and our working week is filled up with how do we stay in this country we're currently in? Um, so that's probably how our time is split. Um, and being completely transparent financially right now, the majority comes from the podcast.
Meghan French DunbarThat's, that's the dream. One thing that, Al, you had mentioned on the podcast that I listened to, which I'll put in the show notes, is You said a quote, your focus being on how you can help someone, that a lot of the times you see the show as a vehicle for highlighting other people and celebrating them and making them look good. And I feel like this is a common thread throughout a lot of the things that I've heard both of you talking about, all the way from Samaritans through where we are today, which is helping other people. It's part of a transition that I advocate for, moving from transactional to relational, being of service to people and not trying to squeeze most out of everyone that you meet. I wanted to just talk a little bit about that. And for the humans out there that want to push back on this of like, well, you could get more out of those relationships. How do we help people understand the profound beauty and value of being relational instead of transactional?
Al ElliottI think first of all, read your book because your story around the magazine that you built, everything you've done, is, it just seems like it's so relational. And there's a lot to be said. I think a lot of people are, and I don't mean this in a bad way, although I probably do, are very selfish and self— no, self-centered is a better way. And very self-centered because that's the nature of being a human. You have to look, you have to look out for yourself. If you can start to expand away from that and go, right, well, look, I'm going to be okay if I can help as many other people be okay as possible.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Al ElliottMagical things happen, as you know, Meghan. Magical things happen. Again, that quote, I'm not going to say it because it's in the podcast and I said it about 5 times and I was cringing every time I said it, but something like, the quickest way to get what you want is to help other people get what they want. It's, look, think about sales, right? Demonstrate you can help someone by actually helping them. If I went to you and you said, I want to grow my pod, and I went, tell you what, have a look at your analytics next week, and you suddenly got an extra 5,000 listeners.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Al ElliottRight? And I went, I did that. Do you want to give me 5 grand a month, and I'll get you another 10,000? You may or may not say it, but you're certainly not going to tell me to go away. You're going to consider it. So I've helped you. I've demonstrated I can help you by actually helping you. And I think that is such an important lesson in anything because you're going to get what you want by helping other people get what I want. I feel like I've gone a little bit sort of like '70s hippie here, and we should be passing around some kind of wet cigarette. But, Lee, can you put a little bit of bones— skin on those bones? Absolutely.
Leanne ElliottThe mantra that Al and I have is nothing's wasted. Even when you find yourself in a situation doing work on something you're not really getting paid for, or not very much for, and it's taking more of your time, our mantra is always nothing is wasted because we're learning something from this. We're making a connection here. And there's been so many examples where later down the line, by nurturing that relationship, by giving that, that time to somebody, has come back in terms of either a paid job or a connection to somebody else that becomes a client, or, or just the opportunity.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottto, to have conversations with people who you connect with in a way that needs to feed you, and especially times like this. And even the bad times, nothing's, nothing's wasted. And I am a big fan of positive psychology, and I can get a bit, a little bit woo with it. And I don't get woo very often, but I do with this because I think it is— you, you have to train yourself to be positive. You have to train yourself to, to be grateful, and you have to train yourself.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottthrough that to be resilient. Like when— like I joked before about us getting kicked out of Bosnia, having to move to Bulgaria for 3 months, but we did last summer and we had 2 days notice to uproot our entire life and the house that we'd rented out for 9 months and wouldn't get the money back, to have to find it. 3 years before that, when we did your nomading, we were in Bulgaria with a guy called Nico who was lovely, bit chaotic, bit crazy, loved Describe him as a toddler with wine. That's the best way to describe him. And a helicopter. And a helicopter. Crazy guy. But we, we put our time in and we were really, you know, we enjoyed spending time with him. But equally, I think he enjoyed spending time more with us than we did with him at times. But, you know, welcomed him in and, and kept that relationship going. So when this happened to us and we hadn't seen him for 3, 4 years, we messaged him. We're like, Nico, bit of a pickle, need to leave the country. Any chance we can stay in that house you rented to us 6 years ago? He's like, yeah, of course you can. See you in a week. So, do you know what I mean? There's always things that you're gonna come back to when you need help. If you've helped somebody, if you're paying it forward, it sounds so cheesy, but it's just the way humanity works. It's almost like a bank account, isn't it? If I've paid into somebody's bank account with goodwill and helping them over the years, and then suddenly need to make a withdrawal, they're much more likely to be there to help me. And that's how the world should work.
Al ElliottOh, I like that. So, you're saying Pay into your bank account before you try and make withdrawal, otherwise you'll be overdrawn on goodwill. Oh, that should be a book.
Leanne ElliottI think it probably is. I think I stole that from somebody else.
Al ElliottAnd also, just really quick practical thing for your listeners is if anyone is considering creating a podcast or they already have a nascent podcast, stop making it about you and getting your name out there and make it about getting other people. Because God, the number of people who are— you can email them and they are like your level 4 and they're level 100. And you go, would you like to come on the podcast? and they go, sure. And you're like, how the hell am I speaking to this person who I have been worshiping my entire life? You're obviously nodding. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
Meghan French DunbarOh, I mean, I was 29 years old and sent a cold email to John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, and said, do you wanna be on the COVID of my business magazine that, P.S., doesn't even exist yet? I'm gonna crowdfund it this summer. And he was like, sure. And I was like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. And so then I had to do it. But then he was on the COVID of the damn magazine, and that's how we got into every Whole Foods in the country. So, speaking of helping people, You all take lots of people's questions, Workplace Surgery, it's a whole segment. What are some of the patterns or trends you're seeing in 2026 that feel different than the last couple of years?
Leanne ElliottFear around AI. Fear, and I mean fear is an emotion. Like, it's not stress, it's not insecurity, it's fear for livelihoods, for professions, for identities that people have built. over decades being taken away by something potentially, maybe we don't know. I think that's been a big shift, and I think more, maybe more nuanced. A couple of years ago, talking about wellbeing and DEI was a very positive space to be. Now wellbeing has become a bit of a buzzword, and DEI, the pushbacks. It's brutal. It's brutal. And people are— some of the questions we get, and people are feeling that. We had one, didn't we, not too long ago about somebody who different DEI programs are being rolled back and values being changed on the website, and how do they respond to it. So, and again, a lot around identity. I think before that it was work, yes, was part of our identity, and there was things wrapped up in that, and especially in terms of things like burnout, which could be very difficult for people to deal with, in particular for entrepreneurs to deal with.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut I think in terms of threats to identity in a way and at a depth that I've not seen in my career.
Al ElliottI think I'd add to that, and it's probably quite related, but the polarization that's happened, it happened on social media. Now it's happening in work where people are asking questions like, well, I'm now working for a boomer. How the hell am I supposed to deal with a boomer? Because I'm a Gen Z. It's like, this is a— you've got to— you might— you probably have grandparents. How do you deal with them? I mean, all right, you have to go over and reset their router from time to time and replace the batteries in the remote control, but otherwise you know how to talk to them. So why are we making this all about them and us? And I think that's one of the issues which is so sad about the DEI stuff, is the DEI was meant to bring us together, and now it seems like almost, oh, well, they're the kind of company that does DEI, but we're not. Because we are smart. And then you just see it all on like, are you for— we're not going to use the word, but that man. Are you against that man? Are you this? Are you that? Boomers versus this. Europe—
Leanne ElliottPick a side. Pick a side.
Al ElliottExactly. People say, don't stop being sheep and stuff. And it's like, hold on a minute. Sheep's lovely. Sheep is how we existed for 10,000 years as an entire herd of people, organizations. That's how we protected ourselves. And now we're going, all right, well, Europe's crap because they do this and they've got all that, and America's better, and then Europe's going, yeah, but you know what, if we break our leg, don't cost us anything, does it? You know what I mean? It's like, wait, aren't we all just nice people who are just trying to get along in the world and just do the best with what we've got? I don't know.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what, that's actually where we get most of our— we don't get trolled very often unless we do mention—
Al ElliottThat word. The T word.
Leanne ElliottYeah, PT. Every time, trolled, even if it's just been passing. I wouldn't speculate as to how and why that happens, but it does.
Al ElliottGood for engagement though.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's good for engagement. But yeah, we get trolled on things that we, more recently, we never did in the first 2 years of our podcast. Anything around diversity inclusion, anything around belonging. We did an episode on transgender rights. My goodness, the comments we had on that episode. It's things that, yeah, between 2022 and 2024, we would talk about openly. And people would be supportive, people would comment, share. And now all of those topics the last 2 years have become, you're absolutely right, Al, a point of divide. And people just want to just stamp where they stand on that side of the argument. And it's a bit frightening, actually.
Meghan French DunbarHow do you deal with the trolls?
Leanne ElliottHow do we deal with trolls?
Al ElliottWell, first of all, on a slightly What we've tried to do is go, when we start getting trolls, it means we're getting attention. It means that we've probably made it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLike, no, we don't mean, like, made it, but do you know what I mean? At least— what do they say? The opposite of love isn't hate, it's ambivalence. So, we are still on the spectrum of love and hate. We're on that side. People care enough to sit there and go, I'm going to write to these very strange English people and tell them just how the man has got a face like a melted candle.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? The only trolls that I ever rise to is when they question question the evidence. Like, it was a point of opinion. If it's a point of, of, you don't mean discrimination or hatred, like, that's you. You're not welcome here. I think I've only ever deleted a handful of comments, and most of those were on the transgender episode that we did, because they just don't need to be in the world, and our guests don't need to see that, that type of feedback. But it's around the evidence. So I get into arguments with people who will— like, I talk about, about diverse teams and, and how diverse thinking and, and therefore demographic diversity can also be good for team performance. And someone was like, cite your source. So I was like, you know what, fair, I didn't mention my source.
Meghan French DunbarSo here you go, receipt, receipt.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly, exactly. So that's how I push back with, with evidence. But otherwise it's people's opinions, it's, it's conversation, unless it's discrimination or hatred, which we just delete and remove. Um, as Al said, let them go. It's, it's engagement, and it's— they tend to tie themselves in knots more than we—
Al Elliottthey don't need our intervention most And also, Meghan, you probably noticed yourself that— I know you're nowhere near as old as us, but you probably, when you get a little older, you're sort of like going, I don't really care what you think, if the truth be told. I don't— if I know you, and I still probably don't care much about what you think about me, but if I don't know you, I couldn't give a shiny shite.
Leanne ElliottI saw Tom Holland, and I'm not a big fan of Tom Holland, but I don't dislike the guy either.
Al ElliottThat's gonna be clipped.
Leanne ElliottI don't know him. But he was on an interview, and somebody was asking him about that, and he said, And he was like, if somebody says something bad about me, my only concern is if— have they got my phone number? If they've got my phone number, then they should really be talking to me and saying that to my face. If they've not, I don't know him, whatever. And I think that's kind of when you're creating content and putting stuff out into the world, it kind of needs to be about, I don't know you, whatever.
Al ElliottNice.
Meghan French DunbarI love that. And also, Leanne and I are the exact same age, so I just got into the genuinely just couldn't give two shits. stage, and it is glorious and wonderful. All right, we have our rapid-fire round. Truth, lies, work. Hardest truth you've ever had to come to terms with?
Leanne ElliottYou're not that important. When I got my first management job, my HR director sat me down and went, just because you're a manager doesn't mean you're that important. You're not that important. You're disposable if you don't do a good job. And he was right. Brutal, but right. Yep.
Al ElliottWow. That is so much better than mine. Mine's really cheesy, but money doesn't make you happy. Um, it doesn't matter. And the lack of money doesn't make you happy. It's— yeah, that— I'm gonna leave it there because there's so many tomes on that that I don't even need to go there.
Meghan French DunbarOkay. The biggest lie you've ever been told, or the best lie you've ever told. Over to you. We both look at Al.
Al ElliottOkay. Biggest lie I ever told, Meghan, was that I was running a legal off-license that delivered alcohol, when in actual fact, what I'd done is just basically ordered everything for every single person in the world and printed out an order sheet, and I had been delivering it. literally hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper. So if the police came in and said, why didn't Meghan order 3 bottles of wine? I go, give me a minute. I'll go find it. And I proved it. So that's probably the biggest lie I've ever told.
Meghan French DunbarThis was to get around licensing restrictions.
Al ElliottSorry, yes. I should have given that context. I didn't give that context. That's also very niche, 'cause that's English licensing law from, like, 2001. I mean, who cares about that?
Leanne ElliottBut the point is, the licensing man said, no, and you went, hold my beer. Exactly.
Al ElliottI will print out every possible order Exactly.
Leanne ElliottShould I ever get audited?
Al ElliottIf you can imagine me as a slightly more British, or a much more British, not as good-looking, slightly less cool Mike Ross from Suits, that was my role in that business. Lee?
Leanne ElliottI think— I'm not sure anyone told me this, but I think a lie that I believed to be a thing was that psychologists have to be very professional and put together and speak well and not swear and remember the big words and present themselves to a— to the world in a way that is Oxford, Cambridge, Ivy League. And that's— I've learned very recently that that's a lie. People want authenticity and how it is. And I don't use the big words because I can't remember them, and I'm from the north of England, so I'm never going to sound posh and fancy. But the fact is, hopefully I can talk about psychology in a way that makes sense to people who aren't psychologists.
Meghan French DunbarMost outdated work norm or practice that you wish people would change?
Leanne ElliottMyers-Briggs. Myers-Briggs, please, for the love of everything in the world, can we put Myers-Briggs in the bin already, please?
Al ElliottYes, I think you know what Leanne feels about that. I would probably say somewhere between the whole return to office thing where offices— in certain cases, offices do make a big difference if you're in a very creative environment where you need to be around people. Uh, Mad Men, for example, wouldn't have worked if they all worked at home.
Meghan French DunbarIf you were to give people a permission slip to unbehave around anything, a societal script, a workplace script, whatever it is, what is the permission slip that you wish you could give people to stop behaving in one certain way?
Leanne ElliottStop behaving in the way you think other people expect. Whether it be in your life, your career, where you live, how you work, what you do. Stop trying to make decisions based on what you think other people think is right or is the norm. So you have my permission slip to make decisions based on what you want and what works for you and your values and the way that you want to live. Do that.
Al ElliottWow. I cannot beat that. So I'm just going to add the tiny little thing of, if you say, I'm going to go and live in— don't live in Bali, but if you're going to go live in Lombok or something, you're going to go for 9 months to Germany, Then the voice that tells you that you are wrong and it's a stupid idea, try and identify whose voice that is. Because if that's your parents, that's your grandparents, that's a friend, just think that's probably the person who's holding you back the most.
Leanne ElliottPermission to pursue the stupid ideas.
Al ElliottOh, look at that. Mic drop. But these are expensive.
Leanne ElliottDon't do that.
Meghan French DunbarWe've mentioned the podcast many times. Where do people find you? How do people best support you?
Al ElliottI think basically just search online, Truth, Lies and Work would come up anywhere you look. The website's truthliesandwork.com and just Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, search for Truth, Lies and Work. And more importantly, go search for Leanne Elliott on LinkedIn because she is the LinkedIn queen. She responds to every single comment, good or bad. Don't look, don't search for me.
Leanne ElliottEventually. It sometimes takes me a little while.
Al ElliottThat's, that's where you should go.
Leanne ElliottThank you.
Meghan French DunbarThank you.
Leanne ElliottThank you so much for having me.
Al ElliottAmazing questions.
Leanne ElliottWe love you so much.
Meghan French DunbarOh, I love you guys. All right, my friend, before I sign off for the day, here are my key Unbehaved lessons that I took away from today's episode. Number 1, sometimes that fuck this moment is the most important career decision that you're ever going to make. Al's moment of sitting in front of the deputy head Master at age 19, hearing about his £28,000 future and firmly saying, nope, is pretty much the seed of what he and Leanne have built. The ability to listen to that voice inside of you that pushes back and tells you that something is wrong or not for you, no matter what you feel like you should be doing. Number 2, authenticity is the name of the game. Al put it best, the way that we talk on the microphone microphone is the way we talk in real life, and that's what draws people to their show. Every attempt to manufacture a more professional version of yourself is a barrier between you and the other people that would actually resonate with you. And this is how they built the UK's number one management podcast, is by refusing to sound like every other management podcast out there. Leanne's closing line speaks to this as well: stop behaving in the way you think other people expect. Make decisions Based on what you want, what works for you, and your values. That is authenticity. It's the whole shift. Every big decision that changed their lives came from letting go of seeking external approval. Number 3, true success is built on being relational instead of transactional. Leanne talking about how nothing is wasted, especially when it's in service of other people or helping someone else. You never know when it's gonna come back around. Think of it more as paying into that bank account with goodwill. Every relationship that you nurture without expectation of return compounds and creates a better future for you and the other person that you're helping. And last but not least, number 4, when you're in the trenches building something new and it starts to feel hard, the key steps that they brought up were fall in love with what you're doing, make sure you're having fun, strive for continual improvement. Just getting 1% better each time and do it your own way. That's all for today. If you liked the episode, maybe share it with someone who needs it and check out Truth, Lies and Work and Unbehaved on any major podcast platform and maybe even subscribe or write something nice. It would make my entire damn day. Until next time.
Al ElliottThat was our episode with Meghan French Dunbar, MFD, on Unbehaved. If you haven't already, go subscribe to her show right now. Search Unbehaved wherever you get your podcasts or head to Meghan French Dunbar, .com/podcast.
Leanne ElliottYeah, she asks the kind of questions that most hosts probably wouldn't or would feel a bit awkward and uncomfortable. Um, and yeah, the whole back catalog is just brilliant. Well worth a listen. Go now.
Al ElliottOkay, next Tuesday we're back with a proper Summer Sessions episode. I think it's our last one as well, and this one's very sad.
Leanne ElliottEnd of summer.
Al ElliottWell, not end of summer, just end of our Summer Sessions. And this one is potentially a bit of a car crash because we're revisiting the predictions we made We actually cover a few years.
Leanne ElliottI think we, we go all the way back to 2022 when we were just baby podcasters. Babies.
Meghan French DunbarYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo let's just say that our hit rate in terms of getting stuff right isn't great.
Al ElliottNo, but we will be honest. We'll tell you exactly what we got wrong, why, and the couple of things we surprisingly, probably accidentally got right.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. So yeah, cool. This is Truth, Lies and Work. If you weren't sure, we don't see you next week.
Al ElliottSee you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. See you.
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