Episode 334 · 8 September 2026 · 56:16
Overthinking, holiday hoarding and Gail's menopause plan. PLUS! Can you bank sleep?
Overthinking, holiday hoarding and Gail's menopause plan. PLUS! Can you bank sleep?
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News: MindFlex AI companion for overthinkers
news roundup#ai#mental-health#overthinking
News: Holiday hoarding and not taking annual leave
news roundup#annual-leave#holidays#workplace-culture
News: Gail's menopause action plan
news roundup#menopause#workplace-policy#health
Workplace Surgery Q1: Losing visibility of remote team
workplace surgery#remote-work#management#visibility
Workplace Surgery Q2: Is burnout individual or business issue?
workplace surgery#burnout#responsibility#wellbeing
Workplace Surgery Q3: Employee faking meetings for focus time
workplace surgery#meetings#focus-time#productivity
Show notes
Overthinking, Holiday Hoarding & Gail's Menopause Plan — PLUS! Can You Bank Sleep?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are back from summer break with a bumper roundup: a Berlin team launches an AI companion for the 73% of young adults who overthink, UK workers are "holiday hoarding" their way to year-end burnout, and Gail's Bakery rolls out a menopause action plan ahead of new UK legislation. Plus, in Truth or Lie: can you actually bank sleep? And three Workplace Surgery questions on remote-team visibility, burnout ownership, and a very suspicious calendar.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. AI for Overthinkers — Mindflex Psychologists in Berlin have launched Mindflex, a psychological AI built around Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), aimed at supporting the 73% of young adults who struggle with overthinking and rumination. It offers a personalised plan and a validated questionnaire — but it's not positioned as therapy. Al and Leanne debate whether an AI companion that checks in on you is a genuine breakthrough or a design flaw waiting to happen. Source →
2. The "Holiday Hoarding" Crisis Half of UK workers aren't using their full holiday entitlement — and it's not because they don't want the time off. Job insecurity and workload pressure are driving people to hoard their annual leave, setting up a massive year-end burnout spike. Leanne's verdict: if your wellbeing policy isn't 100% used, that's your wellbeing intervention. Stop throwing money at new perks and fix the culture first. Source →
3. Gail's Menopause Action Plan Gail's Bakery — yes, that Gail's, the £7.20 coffee shop — is becoming one of the first big brands to introduce menopause action plans and 24/7 digital GP access across its 200 UK locations. It comes ahead of upcoming UK employment legislation. Al and Leanne love the education piece, but flag one big question: are line managers actually trained to have the conversation? Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: Can You Bank Sleep?
Can you deposit extra sleep before a hectic week and withdraw it when you need it? The term "sleep banking" dates back to a 2009 US Army study — and the evidence for is surprisingly strong: French researchers found extra sleep beforehand halved attention mistakes after sleep deprivation, and a basketball study saw 11 college players improve their sprint times and shooting accuracy after extending sleep to 10 hours a night.
But in 2025, sleep researcher Elizabeth Klerman pushed back with a brilliant analogy: sleep is a credit card, not a piggy bank. You can't build up a surplus in advance — you can only borrow against future sleep, and the debt comes due. So what's the verdict? More sleep is always good — but banking it ahead of time? That's a lie.
Sleep research sources:
- Can you bank sleep before a busy week?
- Weekend sleep catch-up
- Klerman, E. B., Banks, S., & Roenneberg, T. (2025). Con: sleep is a credit card, not a piggy bank. SLEEPJ, 48(12), zsaf251.
- Thompson, M. A., Jones, C. B., & Thornburg, C. J. (2017). Sleep banking. Mil Rev, 97(1), 91-97.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Remote visibility: "I manage a fully remote team and I can see whether work gets delivered, but I can't easily tell who's overloaded, who's coasting, or who might quietly be struggling. How do you get proper visibility without turning into a micromanager?"
- Burnout ownership: "I run a growing business and I've started noticing signs that some people are stretched. How do you work out whether burnout is an individual issue or a business design problem?"
- The fake meeting: "A guy on my team blocks out a couple of hours every afternoon with fake meetings because whenever he puts 'focus time' in his calendar, people book over it. My manager has asked me which client he keeps meeting with. Do I tell my manager what's going on?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
🔗 Sleep Research Links
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work— wow, it's a long time since I've said that. Leanne?
Leanne ElliottAre you an overthinker? Well, psychologists may have found a way to help you stop, and it involves an AI companion giving you a call, like a phone call, to see how you're doing. Is this a big step forward in mental health support or another threat to true human connection? Stay tuned to find out more.
Al ElliottAlso this week, most of us are back at our desks now. Holiday season's behind us, but be honest, how much of your leave Did you actually use? I mean, if you're us, then you used all of it. But today I've got a new word for you, one you've probably never heard, describing something an awful lot of us are guilty of.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, can we bank sleep? So psychologists started studying this in 2009, and TikTok has just caught on with influencers sharing their tips on banking 10 hours of sleep a night before a week of deadlines, long travel days, or whatever else will be keeping them up at night. Is it true? Can we deposit sleep? Sleep into our body's bank account and withdraw it when we need it? Or is this all wishful thinking? I've read the research and I've got a verdict.
Al ElliottAnd in the workplace surgery, one listener asks, is burnout an individual issue or a business issue? They've noticed members of the team are stretched and want ways to genuinely help them cope.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we'll help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottBe right back after a quick word from our lovely sponsors. Does your experience with AI sound a little like this? You prompt for 20 minutes, the output is polished, is confident, and is completely flipping useless. Well, that's what happens when AI doesn't know anything about your business.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. But you know what does know something about your business?
Al ElliottHubSpot.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's AI. It works with your actual customer data, every interaction, every signal your team has generated over time. So instead of prompting and hoping, you ask once and ship it.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Right. So if you've been skipping our— if you've been skipping the summer season, you've missed some beauties.
Leanne ElliottBrilliant stuff.
Al ElliottBut obviously summer, summer season was a little bit fun. Some of those are pre— well, all of them prerecorded. So we got a little bit of time off, back in the seat, forgotten how to use a microphone.
Leanne ElliottWhat, about 5 weeks since we've done this?
Al ElliottYeah, maybe 5 weeks. So we're back into the This Week in Work format, which is what our Tuesday sessions— if you're brand new, welcome, welcome, welcome.
Leanne ElliottWelcome.
Al ElliottGet on LinkedIn, find Leanne and tell her how you found us. That would be interesting if you're brand new today and we'll give you a shout out on the next, on the next episode.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. In fact, we should give, because we've had some comments on the old Spotify. Uh, let me log in real time, people, real time.
Al ElliottSo I would also want to—
Leanne ElliottPhil, yeah, we want to know what you've been up to.
Al ElliottUm, we— I don't quite know how you do that. Do you just go on LinkedIn and send you a message, go, I, I went to Rhodes and it was very nice? I don't know.
Leanne ElliottPeople might, they might leave a comment if they're listening.
Al ElliottLeave a comment if you're on Spotify. Leave a comment, tell us what you've been up to. We, we read every single one and Leanne replies to every single one, even, even the nasty ones.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So we've got Ang87.
Al ElliottOh yeah, the 87th of the Ang tribe.
Leanne ElliottYes. It says, I can't believe I just found this podcast. I was so bored of the typical safe and robotic HR podcast. This made my day. Thank you. Smiley face.
Al ElliottWould that possibly be Ang?
Leanne ElliottA-N-G. Ang.
Al ElliottI think it's probably more like— it's more like—
Leanne ElliottAng, not with an E.
Al ElliottYeah, I don't know. Maybe. I don't know.
Leanne ElliottI know. But can you guess what episode they were listening to when they left that comment?
Al ElliottEmma Jamil.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottEmma Jamil's episode has done extremely well.
Al ElliottExtremely, extremely well. Bare-ass Brenda. We had all kinds of fun there.
Leanne ElliottWhat else? Andrea Claire said, I've just discovered this podcast and I really enjoyed the first episode I listened to. Both presenters are easy to listen to and very knowledgeable.
Al ElliottOh, I don't think I've ever been called knowledgeable before.
Leanne ElliottIt was on episode 320, Can You Bullshit a Bullshitter?
Al ElliottThat's going back a bit, isn't it? Yeah.
Leanne ElliottJamie Susan said, I'm so glad I found this podcast. Somebody else said, totally agree on the importance of investing in managers. One thing I used to talk about all the time in manager training in a global hospitality company was when your employee, when your employees think of the organisation, you are what they think of, not the value on the wall, not the name badge, not the travel discounts.
Al ElliottYeah, we had a guy called Brad, I think. I can't remember his surname, but it was way back in like the teens episodes or the 20s. And he's got a great book about brand. I'll try and dig it out and put it in the show notes and also put a link to that particular episode. So yeah, it's really good. Anyway, it's all about values. What else have you seen? What else do the people need to know about you?
Leanne ElliottCan I just also read this one out just because we've got a lovely comment on Mike Hall's episode?
Al ElliottOh, we love Mike.
Leanne ElliottWe love Mike. We love Mike.
Al ElliottJust in case you're not listening to that, Mike Hall was Jimmy Carr's first manager and he's the guy who told Jimmy Carr to quit and go and pursue comedy. Also the nicest guy in the world.
Leanne ElliottYeah, nicest guy. This is from Roland Tate. Said, Mike Hall is indeed a highly inspirational and selfless leader and a rarely found curator of talent. An example for every boss to aspire to.
Al ElliottI wonder if Roland Taitz knows him personally. I know that Mike has— when I spoke to Mike afterwards, he said a lot of his friends listened to it. And they said that a lot of them didn't know the story.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottBecause it's the first time it's ever been published, ever. Wow.
Leanne ElliottSo go and check that out. That's episode 313. If you haven't heard about how Mike basically told Jimmy Carr to get out of shell.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottQuick like. What else to tell you? Nothing much. I'm sick of the heat. I'm sick of the heat, Al. Tell you, as an early perimenopausal woman, I'm not appreciating it being 38 degrees every day.
Al ElliottIt has been, it's been relentless here in the Balkans. I know it's also been like that in the UK and across a lot of places. Yeah, we're waking up and it's just 38 every single day.
Leanne ElliottWe reckon 5 weeks now we've not dropped below 36.
Al ElliottYep. As highs. Yeah, it goes to about 20 overnight. And also it's not rained for about 5 weeks.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, everything's looking a bit yellow, isn't it?
Al ElliottA bit yellow, yeah. A few fires.
Leanne ElliottIt was all yellow.
Al ElliottBut, uh, yeah. Anyway, anyway.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, we should probably do a podcast, right?
Al ElliottYes, it is. So it's time for the news roundup. Leanne, we don't cue the jingle anymore, do we? We don't.
Leanne ElliottWe got feedback that people don't like it, so.
Al ElliottBut if you miss the jingle, let us know. Yeah, we'll get the jingle back. It's on my hard drive somewhere. Le, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottUh, do you overthink? Are you an overthinker, Al?
Al ElliottMm-hmm. I want to know what an overthinker actually is, because you like to define things. So what is an overthinker? And I'll tell you.
Leanne ElliottSo basically, if like, say you got a weird email from like a client, would you have like a 3-hour tailspin in your mind about what that could mean and what it—
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottNo. Okay. So no, not really then.
Al ElliottBut I do overthink Like, like things we're doing. So we're like, all right, we're launching, by the way, top secret, we're launching some tools recently.
Leanne ElliottSoon. You're a tool.
Al ElliottSo true. We're launching some tools for managers. And I have been spending, I've been obsessing about, about what they look like and the UX of that. But so yes, maybe yes and maybe no. Anyway, I've hijacked your piece.
Leanne ElliottNo worries. So a team of psychologists in Berlin have launched an app specifically designed for people who overthink. It's called MindFlex. And the company describes It as a kind of psychological AI, essentially an AI companion designed around established psychological techniques rather than just kind of being a generic chatbot. This is the important bit of the context. So this story comes, I must admit, from a press release issued itself by MindFlex.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo this is obviously gonna be bigging up the MindFlex. I haven't looked at this app, I haven't tried this app, so I don't know, but I thought it was interesting. Um, so just, yeah, bear that in mind. So the psychology they're trying to tackle, um, is, is pretty interesting. So the release cites research Research suggests that 73% of adults aged 25 to 35 identify as overthinkers and points to the work of psychologist Susan Nolen-Hoeksema on rumination.
Al ElliottRumination, what a word.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so rumination is when we get stuck, so repeatedly thinking about the same problem without actually getting anywhere with it. So your example about the tools—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIs that word funny now? The tools. You, yes, you were thinking about a lot, but you weren't focusing on just one specific aspect of it, were you? You weren't kind of stuck in that.
Al ElliottWhy have you stopped?
Leanne ElliottBecause I'm trying to get some feedback from you, but you just— what are you Googling?
Al ElliottI'll tell you in a minute.
Leanne ElliottWhere were we up to?
Al ElliottI wasn't listening.
Leanne ElliottI know. So anyway, yes, where was I? So yeah, so rather the difference is rather than thinking to help you solve the problem. Rumination is basically just getting stuck on it, not getting on with it, and it's linked to worse mood, poorer problem-solving, and increased risk of anxiety and depression. So MindFlex, the app, is trying to intervene in that cycle. The app is inspired by Acceptance and Commitment Theory, or ACT— sorry, theory, therapy— and particularly the idea of psychological flexibility. So very simply, That's our ability to experience quite uncomfortable thoughts without needing to get rid of them before we can kind of carry on doing things. So rather than kind of thinking, I need to stop worrying about this presentation before I can start preparing it, it's kind of going, I'm worrying about this presentation. Fine, I'm going to prepare for it.
Al ElliottYeah, that makes sense.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So MindFlex gives users a personalised plan and uses a validated questionnaire. This is all from the press release to track psychological flexibility over time. And they've also built in A feature that AI contacts you so it can remember previous conversations, follow up on something you've talked about several days ago, and proactively check in rather than waiting for you to open the app. So users get a weekly voice call from their AI companion, and you can connect it apparently to your Apple Watch and Apple Health and stuff like that. Anyway, I should mention their co-founder, who is a psychotherapist, Felix Mai, describes what they're trying to solve as a timing problem.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo his argument is that people can spend months struggling with things before getting support, whereas the AI companion can notice, remember, and ask them first. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI think it's a good idea. I think that— I do think that AI can also contribute towards overthinking, particularly ChatGPT, who's very keen on, on when you ask it a question going, right, now next things I can do is this and this and this, rather than actually going, well, shall I just go and Do this thing. So I think AI actually contributes a little bit towards overthinking. I didn't realise it was so many people, 73% of people. And it's weird or interesting that they are targeting younger.
Leanne ElliottYeah, 25 to 35. We're no longer relevant to marketers, Al. No longer relevant. But also, we're the people with the money, surely.
Al ElliottAnd also, 25 to 35-year-olds, what percentage of those will answer their pissing phone?
Leanne ElliottTrue that. They ain't getting a phone call, accepting a phone call, are they?
Al ElliottI read something this morning that Gen Z, that there's a new greeting with Gen Z. They just hope, and Right. Because there's so many, like, spam calls that they just answer the phone and just stay silent and wait for the other person. Because if they're human, they'll go, hello, are you there?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut if they're not, they'll go, hi, how are you? So, so yeah, I think there's a bit— there's a big problem here that they actually get people to call you and nobody's answering the phone.
Leanne ElliottDesign flaw.
Al ElliottDesign flaw. But, but anyway, no, I think this is a really good idea and I think it's nice. And from a psychological point of view, is it a good thing? Is it a good thing? I don't know.
Leanne ElliottI mean, MindFlex themselves are very clear they aren't positioning this app as therapy, even though it is designed kind of on kind of principles of ACT. And they're describing it as a mental wellness product rather than, again, any kind of, kind of medical or crisis service. I think psychological flexibility to me makes a lot of sense, and particularly in an environment that is constantly changing to the point where we've all got a bit whiplash. Did you frickin' hear that PT changed the name of Lake Ontario? Like, honestly, I was thinking the other day, if I was in a simulation, I think I'd feel relieved at this point. I'd be like, oh, thank God for that. I thought that was all real. Wow.
Al ElliottYeah, but then haven't something like, I think if you're in America on Google Maps, it shows the Lake America or something. If you're anywhere else in the world, it shows Ontario. Ontario. And it's the same with the Gulf of America, which was the Gulf of Mexico. If you're in America, it shows that, which is again like that weird thing that you're in this echo chamber if you're in America, because you're like, oh yeah, it's changed. Of course it's changed. It's on the maps. It's changed. Whereas everyone else in the world going, you idiots, it's not changed. Shh, don't tell them. It's a bit like The Truman Show.
Leanne ElliottLet them believe it. Let them believe it. I heard that as well, that PT is now— his next target is New Mexico.
Al ElliottOh God, what's he gonna do? New America.
Leanne ElliottNew America or something, probably. He's not very creative with his renaming, is he? But my point of all that was, there's so much craziness and chaos in the world that psychological flexibility as a way of kind of being resilient, I think, is a good thing. So if this app does help with that, or at least start to help us with the reframing of things, particularly with younger people, then I think that could be a really positive thing. So like I said, I haven't tried it yet. I did get in touch with one of the founders to mention we were going to Put it on the show to see if I might be able to get a little free login to test it out. I haven't heard back yet.
Al ElliottSo, um, he's maybe overthinking about the overthinking. He's a bit worried about the appearance on this, on the pod. Don't worry. Don't worry.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo we said nice things about it, but balanced because we've not tried it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. We basically said what the press release said and gave some opinions. So that's called MindFlex. I'll leave a link in the show notes. Al, what have you seen these past 5 weeks or so?
Al ElliottI have actually seen quite a lot and I have actually saved quite a lot. I use something called Matter, which is a bookmarking app. And I've saved quite a lot. And then I can see, when I looked over my archive today, I could see that I was giving less and less of a shit as the—
Leanne ElliottYeah, same.
Al ElliottAs August went on, because I was saving just stuff which I was like, that's not interesting. I just, yeah, I just saved it.
Leanne ElliottI was saving less. Like the first week I was saving like probably 2 or 3 stories a day. And I'm not even sure I saved one in the last week.
Al ElliottA big shout out to Dr. Jake, who's been trolling us relentlessly for basically being very European and not working in August. But it was glorious. And we did work. We did work.
Leanne ElliottWe just didn't podcast.
Al ElliottWe didn't podcast. And we talked about a lot and we spoke about a lot of things and we had lots of lovely meetings. And I got into Hermes in a big way. Not the handbag, the actual bot. Spent the entire month building out Hermes. Very cool. Anyway, so new word for you this week. It is called holiday hoarding. Guesses? What are you laughing at?
Leanne ElliottYou're a whore. Can't say that.
Al ElliottNot that kind of whore. Holiday hoarding.
Leanne ElliottHoliday hoarding. Is that when people will save all of their holidays to then take off a massive, big, big holiday?
Al ElliottYes, except no.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Yes, but no.
Al ElliottIn many ways, yes, but also in many other ways.
Leanne ElliottBut in the important ways, no.
Al ElliottNo, it's almost that. It's basically a growing trend of workers hanging on to annual leave, but Not taking it. So there's new data from Breathe HR found that around half of UK workers didn't use their full holiday entitlement last year, and it's getting worse, not better, because 1 in 4 are planning to take even less time off this year than last year.
Leanne ElliottWhy?
Al ElliottSo, well, I'm going to get on to that. Good question. Good question, Leanne. Thank you for the, for the chip up. A big driver apparently here, according to the article, is job insecurity. 1 in 5 workers say they're holding back leave because they're worried it'll make them look less committed in a shaky job market. Other things the article said was a third of workers said their workload is what's actually stopping them taking their leave. So this is basically more like, rather than people are scared to take holidays, people literally can't take holiday vacation. Sorry if you're across the pond, which is obviously a big issue. There is another one. There was, there was, they did say that a lot of people said they can't track their holidays, how much they've taken and how much they haven't. Really simple, like, solution. That's like, it could be a spreadsheet. I'm sure there's apps out there.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWorkaday, I think.
Leanne ElliottI think the majority of I think so.
Al ElliottBut here's the thing, which the survey did bring up, and Leanne, you're gonna get angry about this.
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna try not to get angry.
Al ElliottOver a third of people who do take holidays still get contacted by their manager when they're away. So even when they do switch off, work follows them, which is a bit shit. Thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI often get asked by business owners about wellbeing. They want to do something around wellbeing. wellbeing and support their people. And maybe it's an app, or maybe it's mindfulness at lunch, or maybe it's some kind of meditation room or whatever else. And my first question is always, how— what percentage of your staff take their full annual leave allowance?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd if it's not 100%, that's your wellbeing intervention. You know, that's the— that's how you help people detach from work. That's how they switch off. That's how they rest and recover and build that the resilience they need to go again. And that includes not contacting them when they're on holiday. That is not cool. That doesn't help. So I think for any business owner out there who's looking at their team and seeing that they're a bit fatigued or maybe starting to burn out, or they're just not as innovative or creative as they once used to be, or maybe not speaking up in meetings as much, and they're thinking, I might need to invest in wellbeing here— how much annual leave are they taking?
Al ElliottAnd clearly Not enough.
Leanne ElliottYou have these policies in place for a reason, right? Use what you've got already before start throwing money at apps that aren't going to do anything.
Al ElliottLove that. There you go. So there's a really quick fix for you. Just to round this off, the article did say that almost half of the people who were classed as holiday hoarders reported being burnt out by the end of the year. What a big surprise.
Leanne ElliottShocketh.
Al ElliottShocketh. Shocketh. So yeah, it does talk a little bit about evaluating performance by output rather than hours, which we've talked about lots and lots on this pod. But, but really, Really, the key thing is, as you say, is just take your full allowance of holiday. Make it, and that is a cultural thing because I think most people would want to take their full allowance, but they stop. Like, we've got the reasons here because one, they can't because the work isn't, they won't allow them. 2, it doesn't matter because the manager will follow them to the beach anyway. And 3, the culture is, oh well, if you take it, you're a bit of a slacker, which is not cool.
Leanne ElliottNot cool at all. Yeah, exactly. And it's I think it's the same with— there was, was it a certain percentage of people said that they're reluctant because they can't take time off or like the work won't get done?
Al ElliottYeah, let me just find what that was. It was a third of them said that their workload is what's stopping them taking leave.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so again, this is where wellbeing is really operational. Like, where's the kind of the handover and then hand back in, in that scenario? Like, do you have a buddy? Is it spread amongst The team? Is it just that work doesn't get done for 2 weeks? But of course, it, you know, you can't come back to twice the work. Um, you know, really good managers are going to have this whole process figured out so people know that, one, they can take time off and not have to worry about how the work's getting done, and 2, come back and know that everything's in order because their team have helped them take care of all their clients and all the work that needed to be done. And, and they don't walk into this big stress ball of an environment after 2 weeks on the beach in Greece, you know?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWellbeing is as operational as it is anything else.
Al ElliottExactly. What else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottGail is turning up for the girls.
Al ElliottWho's Gail?
Leanne ElliottYou know Gail. Do you remember when a couple of years ago I went to HubSpot's Grow? Plug for the sponsor. You're welcome, HubSpot.
Al ElliottPlease give us some extra money.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's European summit is called Grow.
Al ElliottAll right.
Leanne ElliottAnd I went to the one in London.
Al ElliottOh, yes, I remember.
Leanne ElliottDo you remember? And I got a coffee before I got on stage. the tube. It's in London. Before I got on the tube to go into, into central London, and I put it on my joint card, and Al also gets notifications when things are spent on the joint card. And you were like, who the fuck is Gail and why does she want £7.20? Gail is the posh coffee shop.
Al Elliott£7.20 for a cup of coffee?
Leanne ElliottSorry, I dropped an F-bomb there. I'm so sorry. I'm in holiday mode still.
Al Elliott£7.20 for a cup of coffee? Get in the sea. £7.20. I'd want a massage for that as well.
Leanne ElliottWhat is Gail? So yes, Gail is the posh coffee shop.
Al ElliottCoffee.
Leanne ElliottYes, I saw this in the Sunday Times, and it's basically about Gail's becoming one of the first big brands to reveal how it's planning to support employees going through menopause ahead of new employment laws coming in next year.
Al ElliottOh, I didn't know that.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So Gail has around 200 bakeries across Britain. The vast majority are south of Birmingham because you will find no self-respecting northerner who's gonna pay £7.20 for a cup of coffee. So yeah, so it's kind of overhauling a lot of its HR following the Labour Employment Rights Act and the changes around menopause. So from next year, employers with more than 250 workers— this is in the UK— will be asked to set out plans for how they support employees dealing with the menopause. And Gail's has decided to kind of get ahead of it. And it's probably a bit of good PR, isn't it, Gail?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottLet's not lie. So they've created what it calls a menopause action plan designed to make it easier for employees to actually talk about what they're experiencing at work. Obviously, menopause can look very different for different people, but if you're not sure, symptoms can include things like hot flushes, disrupted sleep, brain fog, and changes in mood, all of which can of course potentially affect somebody during their working day. So Miranda Burgum, who is Gail's People Director, told the Sunday Times All we're trying to do is talk freely and for it not to be a forbidden subject. She says that part of the aim is helping managers and teams understand that menopause isn't a taboo, and the plan is as much about actual help as it is starting these conversations. So according to The Times, Gail's is also introducing, introducing additional internal benefits, including 24/7 access to a digital GP. So Gail's is essentially getting its approach in place now before larger employers are expected to start publishing their own menopause Support action plans. Our thoughts.
Al ElliottI think this is obviously, this is great. Anything that helps us, that helps menopausal women is great. But I also think there would be a great, great addition if they could teach us men what to say and how to start a conversation elegantly. Because I think that, like, I can imagine being in office and then Martha walks in and me going, oh, are you menopausal today, Martha? That's not, you know.
Leanne ElliottMenopausal Martha.
Al ElliottMenopausal Martha. I've just got, we've got a new character.
Leanne ElliottWe've got a movie.
Al ElliottBare-ass Brenda or menopausal Martha. Uh, so I wouldn't know, like, so I would, I would default to not saying anything. Yeah, you know, but I would like— I want to say, are you okay? Is there anything I can do? But I just feel like that would be a minefield. So we need Dr. Annie Doyle here to talk about that kind of thing.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah.
Al ElliottSo yeah, so that's what I would want. That's what I would want as a man out of it, which is, which is interesting that I have managed to insert What about the men though? God, menopause literally has the word men in it. We should be more included. That's funny.
Leanne ElliottAnd I know actually that's not your intention. And I think it's actually a really good idea. Education. And for everybody, like I, I have been learning more and more about perimenopause and menopause. And it is mind-blowing the symptoms that come with it. All sorts, like vertigo and feeling like, like you can't get enough air or that you're choking. That's all part of, of, um, perimenopause symptoms. It's so hormonal, obviously, um, but it has such physical, um, and psychological symptoms. It's, it's quite, it's quite incredible how women for so long have been going through this for a decade, by the way. It can last for 10 years.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottAre going through that and still functioning in society to the point where The majority of women under 30 and men know nothing about it.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottThat's how frickin' cool women are, that they can get on with that and nobody even knows.
Al ElliottMassive.
Leanne ElliottWhereas you get a sniffle.
Al ElliottThat's true. That's true. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottMen in general. Very, very sexist there. I'm sorry. But my point being—
Al ElliottI look forward to your letters.
Leanne ElliottAnd your comments. The only thing I would say to this policy, just if there are other organisations listening, or maybe you're a small business owner and think, I might need to think about this. I think the 24/7 access GP is great. I think they also talked about an EAP programme, which is fine. I think also it's looking at things again, like flexible working, working from home certain times. I just think it's actual practical things as well in terms of the working day, as well as education and health support. But interesting anyway, I'll leave a link in the show notes. They do a good coffee, I'm not gonna lie. The coffee is good.
Al ElliottBetter had be. Better had be for what? £7.20 is around about 14. So it's around about 18 marks in our local currency. And a coffee around here is around about 3 marks.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, the pastries look incredible as well, but I've never, I've never been able to purchase one because they're so expensive.
Al ElliottBecause that remortgage hasn't come through yet. So anyway, building a house, £7.20 is like a sink over here.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it genuinely is.
Al ElliottLeanne, I think it's time we take a little break, hear something lovely from our sponsors, actually from us, but it's about our sponsors. And we will see you after the break for our truth or lie and our World Famous Weekly Word episode. You put your questions at the end. See, I did it. I remembered it. Yay. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottWelcome to the break.
Al ElliottYes, my favourite part of the show. These, these 2 idiots have stopped talking.
Leanne ElliottYes, I want to tell you about my new favourite podcast. No, That's a lie. It's my old favourite podcast.
Al ElliottI've been on this one for a while. Didn't know where that was going. Didn't know where that was going.
Leanne ElliottIt is called I Digress. It is hosted by Troy Sandage and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottYes, it's got shows that are under 30 minutes and I Digress helps eliminate complexity, complications and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies that achieve scalable and sustainable success. At least that's what it says here.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you do If you want to hear a really personal story, go to episode 136. This is Troy's honest account of fatherhood, killing hustle culture, and what really matters when you stop performing and start living with intention.
Al ElliottListen to I Digress wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottThat concludes the break.
Al ElliottLet's return to the scheduled programming.
Leanne ElliottBack to the studio.
Al ElliottOkay, welcome back. It is Truth or Lie time. It's that time of the week we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually bakes it, but Bakes it up. God, it has been a while. Backs it up. Thinking about pastries again. Leanne, we are talking about a workplace idea, but this isn't actually— this isn't fit into the workplace directly, is it? What are we talking about today?
Leanne ElliottSleep banking.
Al ElliottGotta be careful I say that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you do, don't you? Yeah, you do.
Al ElliottHe's a proper sleep banker, him.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah.
Al ElliottWilliam's a proper sleep banker.
Leanne ElliottIs he sleep banking again? William, cut it out!
Al ElliottWe've got clients in the office. I feel like I've ruined this segment. It's not even started. Okay, Leigh, talk us through it.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, the term sleep banking is about 15 years old, 2009. And it was coined by a team of researchers working with the US Army, led by somebody very famous in this world called Tracy Rupp. They were trying to solve a pretty practical problem. So soldiers often go into missions already short on sleep. So the researchers wanted to know if you give someone extra sleep beforehand, does it protect them later? So this is all about, because we know how important sleep is for mental health, for physical health, for all the healths, right? So this isn't necessarily workplace-based, but if we're not getting sleep, we ain't gonna be working very well, are we?
Al ElliottWe aren't.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, so one study kicked all of this off. And since then, researchers have tested this idea on shift workers, athletes, and people Doing simulated all-nighters in a lab and all asking the same basic question. So the theory claims that sleep banking, you can sleep extra hours before a stretch when you know you'll be short of sleep. So say you've got a long flight or you're on longer shifts. If you, for the week before that, spend 10 hours in bed rather than 8, the idea is, can you bank the sleep to help you when you're then deprived in the future?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottMakes sense. Cool. So let's start with the original study for the for side of the argument, in support. So in 2009, US Army funded a trial with 24 people. Half slept 10 hours a night for a week, the other slept their normal 7. Then everyone was cut down to just 3 hours a night for a full week. So the group who had banked extra sleep beforehand kept their attention and reaction speeds sharper.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne Elliottthroughout the week where they're only getting 3 hours a night. And they also recovered faster once normal sleep came back.
Al ElliottI see. So that's a very convincing for.
Leanne ElliottYes. Yes. And this was the study that everything else builds on. So 2015, a French team tested it with 14 men sleeping either 8 hours or 10 hours a night for 6 nights. Then everyone stayed awake for 38 hours straight, no sleep at all. Brutal.
Al ElliottBrutal.
Leanne ElliottThe group with extra People who had extra sleep beforehand made about half as many attention mistakes on a reaction test. They also had far fewer microsleeps. We call them micro snoozes, don't we, love? The tiny few seconds when your brain switches off for a minute. Go on, what were you going to say?
Al ElliottNo, no, I was just thinking that maybe I did that a bit earlier when I was Googling ruminate.
Leanne ElliottHow rude. So yeah, and they found that the benefit was still there the next day. And so even after a full night of recovery sleep, the people who had banked sleep were still performing better.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe team ran a follow-up in 2016, this time on physical endurance. So 12 men did 6 nights of extra sleep, then a full night with zero sleep, then a leg muscle endurance test. And they lasted about 8% longer than after a normal week of sleep and said it felt easier. So the important thing about this one is their muscles weren't any stronger. It was the extra sleep was helping them push through the fatigue.
Al ElliottThis is all sounding good.
Leanne ElliottYeah, all sounding good. Then there was a basketball study. So 11 college players extended their sleep to 10 hours a night for 5 to 7 weeks. Their sprint times improved from 16.2 seconds to 15.5. So that's quite a difference, isn't it? Nearly a full second. Their shooting accuracy went up about 9%. But the only flaw in this study was that nobody deprived them of sleep afterwards to test if it kind of held. So it was kind of the banking sleep without then the deprivation.
Al ElliottOh, okay.
Leanne ElliottSo I guess it's really strong that if you're well rested, you perform better.
Al ElliottYeah, well, that's probably more like the real life because in real life you probably wouldn't go 38 hours straight.
Leanne ElliottYou might if you're a health professional or—
Al ElliottTrue, true, true. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd one more piece, a study of 14 men had a week of extra sleep and researchers found it raised a hormone called IGF-1. IGF-1, which helps repair tissue and helps with brain function. So that might give a hint at a possible reason as to why sleep banking might work. It's a hormonal change in the body.
Al ElliottGot it. So that's all the evidence for. It's pretty highly stacked, I can see. So is there any evidence against?
Leanne ElliottYeah. So not everybody agrees that sleep banking is real. So this is very recent, 2025. A sleep researcher named Elizabeth Kluhrmann led a team that published a pretty formal challenge to the whole idea. Their argument was that sleep isn't like a piggy bank where you can kind of put extra in now and take it out later. It's more like a credit card. So you can borrow against sleep, but you're going to owe it back afterwards.
Al ElliottI tell you what, Elizabeth, what a lovely analogy.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat is brilliant. I like that.
Leanne ElliottIsn't it? Well done, Lizzie. So yeah, she said you can't bank, you can't kind of have this build up this surplus in advance. The kind of idea that they had to test this was that if sleep banking is really a thing, can you actually fall asleep when you're not tired?
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottBecause it's almost like, well, you should be able to because you're banking sleep. You don't need it now, but you're banking it for the future. So to test it, researchers gave people way more time in bed than they needed, 12 to 14 hours a night for weeks. And as I said, with that logic that if people can sleep on demand, They'll use all of that time. And if they can't, they'll run out of tiredness and just kind of lie there awake. And that is exactly what happened. For the first few nights, people slept through most of the extended time because they were catching up on existing tiredness. But once they caught up, they started lying awake for long stretches night after night. Even with all that time available, their bodies simply stopped wanting more sleep. So the conclusion from them was that nobody could sleep past the point their body actually didn't need anymore.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo there's no evidence that anyone can sleep, um, kind of before it's owed, which means there's no way to build a surplus in advance. And that's exactly what sleep banking would require. Um, there is another study worth mentioning. So 70 people went through 2 rough weeks in a row of sleep. So just, um, 5 nights of just 4 hours sleep. Then 5 more nights of the same. And in between those 2 weeks, they got 1 night's sleep, as much, 1 night's sleep as much as they wanted. And if banking worked, that 1 good night should have made the second rough week earlier. So that makes sense. They had 5 nights of 4 hours and 1 night of normal sleep and another 5 nights of 4 hours.
Al ElliottSo, so it would be that if you can sleep bank, then like you said, that 1 night is going to make the second week better than the first week because you didn't bank on the first week. Yes. Got it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. But it didn't. People's performance kept getting worse either way. So what mattered was their sleep pattern over time, not that one night in the middle. And then the other problem as well is that extra sleep didn't make people feel less tired. So actually, if you look at the original studies, both the 2009 and 2015 studies, people who banked extra sleep performed better on tests, but still reported feeling very, very sleepy, just as sleepy and tired as everybody else.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, the banking is pretty hard to pull off. in real life. And the other thing I think I need to point out as part of the against, if we look back at the original samples, one, only on men, didn't include any, any women in there, um, and very small sample sizes, 24 people, or is it 14 people, 24 athletes, very, very small sample sizes.
Al ElliottSo the verdict is, see, I was convinced you could up until you gave me all the against. And so now I feel like I wanna go back to Elizabeth's analogy of credit card, not savings account.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIs that what you think?
Al ElliottThat's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm getting from it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. I agree. So yeah, sleep banking, truth or lie? I think the official answer needs to be that more research is needed. We don't really know yet. Extending sleep before kind of a tough stretch does seem to improve in those smaller samples, things like attention and reaction time and endurance. But as you rightly said, Al, we don't know whether it's actually sleep banked, or whether it's actually more that we're paying it back afterwards. Um, so yeah, the improvements could be, uh, because of a genuine kind of reserve, or more than likely could be because people are catching up on debt that they didn't realise that they had. Um, so yeah, I guess sleep banking, do you know, but probably the better idea is just try and sleep more and more consistently. Um, and you'll likely perform better. So sleep banking, truth or lie? If I had to decide, I'd probably say a lie.
Al ElliottOkay, fantastic. Thank you, Leanne. I'm guessing all of the links will be in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottSure.
Al ElliottLike a proper scientist. Uh, if you have your own idea for truth or lie, then get in touch. Just check the show notes. Um, look at our brand new website, truthliesandwork.com. You'll see there's lots on there. There's lots on there.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat's one of the things that Hermes has been helping me with. It's been, uh, yeah, so you can go on there, you can find all of the previous questions. I think there's about 300 of them. I know, sorry, previous— I've talked about Workplace Surgery, the previous Truth and Lie, which is probably about 40, 50 of them. I think I'm doing, doing it for almost a year. Um, and if you have your own idea, then there's ways to get in touch in the show notes. We'd love to hear from you, even if it's just a study or something that's been bothering you.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYou're like, hmm, I wonder if that's true or not.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWe'll find out. Okay, so it is now time for my favorite time of the week. It's the time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, I've got 3 questions. Are you ready?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOn my first whistle. Okay, so this person writes, they say, I feel like I've lost visibility of my remote team. Now this is really, really— we've— I'm not going to name who it is, but I've spoke to someone quite recently who's saying the same thing that I do. Oh, remote team.
Leanne ElliottOh, really?
Al ElliottYeah, lost visibility. So there could be a tool around that. You're a tool. So, hi, Al and Leanne, I manage a fully remote team. I'm struggling with something I've— something I never really had in the office. I can see when work gets delivered, but I can't easily tell who's overloading, who's coasting, and who might be struggling. I absolutely do not want to start monitoring people or constantly checking up on them, but equally, I feel like I'm managing these people with only half the information I used to have. Leanne, is there any way to get proper visibility of a remote team without using one of these nasty little trackers or being a nasty little micromanager?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it can feel a bit tricky, can't it? I mean, I've managed teams remotely, or remote teams, for like, God, 15 years.
Al ElliottSome of those people you've never met, haven't you?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, many of them never met. So, I understand that it can feel like a shift, particularly when you're used to managing people in person. The truth is, there's no difference to it. There's no different techniques to managing a remote team. It's just a bit more intention and probably a lot more frequency in terms of communication. I understand what you're saying about tracking. I have worked in teams in both scenarios, one that we didn't track, but we had very, very clear, um, targeted outcomes, and one where we did track, where we still had an end product, but the route to get there could vary massively. We did use the tracking in, in the latter just to see where people— more to, to identify training and development, where if a task was taking people a bit too long, then there's something there that either something in the process wasn't working, they were really unlucky and just getting kind of all the difficult clients, or there is a training need there. Um, I would obviously then, from a time perspective, see people who were just massively, um, overextending themselves in, in general over a week. So, I think it depends on the culture of the organisation, how the team is set up. So, I wouldn't rule out time monitoring, but be very, very clear about what its purpose is and what you're going to get out of it as a manager. More than likely, all you need to do is just start having more conversations with people. You're not going to bump into people in the kitchen over a cup of tea, so you're going to have to pick up the Slack or the phone or the FaceTime and actually have more regular check-ins with people. And that could be a quick, quick 5 minutes every morning just to kind of debrief on what's been happening. It could be a more time-based one-to-one once a week, half an hour with people. And you can see, you know, if they don't want to switch on their camera ever, or they're just starting to look a bit tired, you can still see these cues through video and actually having these conversations and asking people directly, because we know from the research that one of the main risks of working from home or working remotely is that people do tend to blur their boundaries between work and life more and do tend to work more hours. And it's quite significant. It's something like 15 to 20% more hours people work as they're working from home. So, you can just assume from kind of typical data, these people are probably stretching themselves more than they should be.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, it's having that honest conversation. I know this is a common trap that people can fall in. How do you find you're balancing your time at the minute? Do you feel like you're working more hours than you should be? Is there anything else that you need in terms of support? And on the flip side, do you have enough to do? How long are things taking you? Are you challenged? Are you interested? Some job crafting type things. Are we using your strengths? What other tasks or responsibilities could you have that are going to feel more fulfilling? It's having these very open, direct manager conversations, coaching conversations, as you would with an in-office team. You just have to be a bit more intentional, probably a bit more, um, do them a bit more regularly. And in terms of people slacking off, this really frustrates me with remote teams. If you're managing by kind of outcomes and you've, you've kind of seen your question, you've got, you know that things are being delivered. Doesn't really matter. Does it really matter? Because I think it's more of a question— these people, it matters from an engagement perspective that they're probably going to get bored and might leave. So it's the same questions again in terms of, are you being challenged enough? What is it you could be doing that you'd find more enjoyable or more purposeful or bringing you more meaning? In the meantime, as long as they're delivering, then cool. It's these conversations are going to help you figure out— and I don't want to see people slacking off, but maybe people that are just more efficient than you realise or aren't being as challenged as much as they should be.
Al ElliottOkay, great. All right, we've got another similar question here. I grouped this one because this one's quite similar. So this is about whether the employee's burnout is actually my responsibility as the manager. I run a growing business and I've started noticing signs that some people are stretched. My instinct is to offer more support, encourage time off, maybe bring in some wellbeing stuff. Go back and listen to the beginning of this episode. But part of me wants Leanne will have some opinions on that. How do you work out whether burnout is an individual problem or a business design problem?
Leanne ElliottIt's both.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottIt's both. It's, it's an individual thing and it's a business, or more accurately, work design problem. So, you know how they talk about people have, have their own windows of tolerance and people have very different experiences in life and different genetics and different And, and their kind of tolerance for pressure and workload is going to differ from individual to individual. So addressing wellbeing at an individual level as a business owner or leader is really hard, and you can't really do that. You're signposting people either through an EAP or, or GP services or counselling services or whatever else. Like, you, you as an individual manager or business owner, it's, it's difficult to have a direct impact on individual wellbeing.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWell-being by just focusing on the individual, because you're not really qualified to do that, and it's not really your kind of in your area of control and expertise, or indeed at times responsibility. But what you're creating in terms of the work environment, the impact that has on the individual experience and their well-being, that is absolutely your responsibility. And as I alluded to before with the holiday allowance, it's often things like that around work design and policy that have much more to do.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottwith wellbeing than an app or mindfulness or free meals or whatever else. So it's always going to be things, of course, around workload. Well, the interesting thing about workload, I was reading some more recent research on this recently. I'm such a nerd. This is how I spent my holiday. There's a new meta-analysis out that looked at like 60 years of research into role stresses.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd they basically found through, and it was a massive sample in the end, I think it was like more than half a million Huge, huge sample. And they basically found that in terms of job stresses, that's things like role overload, which would be kind of too much work, role ambiguity, so that's not really understanding what it is your responsibilities are, and role conflict, and kind of how these 3 interact with the individual experience in terms of performance, in terms of mental health, in terms of kind of other outputs. So they found that role ambiguity, so not kind of understanding responsibilities of role, had a negative impact mainly on things around attitudes and performance. So it meant lower job satisfaction, lower work engagement, lower organisational commitment, lower task performance. Um, that was kind of the role ambiguity. Role overload, which is where Um, we talked about kind of the workload. Yes, it did have an impact more on things like negative mood and symptoms, but in terms of burnout, role conflict was the most important predictor. So that's when we have like competing demands on our time, whether that be from a manager or a customer or a peer, or there's arguments in, in terms of whose job is it to do that. That was the biggest predictor of burnout, of psychological distress, of counterproductive behaviours in the workplace and of intention to leave.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So, we can often think that workload is the problem, and often it's a bit more nuanced. It's more about why is that workload feeling that heavy? And it's probably more than likely because we also know that these 3 things are correlated, that they're also experiencing work overload and role— sorry, role ambiguity and role conflict. So, all that to say, work design is so important. It's often in very operational transactional elements that you wouldn't think were associated with mental health and burnout. So checking things around role clarity, role conflict, looking at things like relationships within the workplace— is there any infighting, is there any incivility? Meaning is a big one. Do people understand what the organization is trying to do? Do they understand their role in, in delivering that meaningful work? Is one of the biggest predictors of work engagement. Engagement, which from a psychological perspective is basically the opposite of burnout. So, there's lots of things that we can do in terms of work design to improve wellbeing before we try and dip into the individual side. Let's be honest, there's a whole other fricking industry in terms of mental health and wellness practitioners that are there to do just that. So, yeah, look at your work design, and the 3 things I would always start with, Reason. Why is your organisation there? What is it trying to achieve? And how do people— how can people relate to that? Role. Are people clear on what they, they have to do in their role? Are workloads evenly distributed? And are we making sure there's no role conflict? And recognition. Are people being fairly paid? Are they being recognised in terms of their performance and also in terms of their career development? They're 3 really nice places Excellent, excellent.
Al ElliottAnd if you want to know more about burnout, then we've got 3 episodes with the wonderful Kate Donovan, who's arguably the world expert on burnout. Episode 329, 302, and 185. Don't worry, I'll put the links in the show notes. Or you can just go on to truthliesandwork.com, click on guests, find Kate, and it'll show you all of them. And you can just click play and listen to them. And they've got, they've got the segments, they've got all of that. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's beautiful. Go check out truthliesandwork.com.
Al ElliottYeah, lovely. Okay, so last question here. Um, I kind of like this one. My direct report has been faking meetings to get work done. So he says, a guy on my team has been blocking out a couple of hours every afternoon with fake meetings. He told me he started doing it because whenever he puts focus time in his calendar, people just book over it. So now he uses boring meeting titles and everyone leaves him alone. I love this. The problem is my manager is now asking me to take him off the calendar. Which client he keeps meeting with because she wants to join one of the calls. I don't wanna lie for him, but I also understand why he's doing it. So do I grass on him? Do I— snitches get stitches. Do I tell my manager what's going on or keep quiet?
Leanne ElliottSnitches get stitches. I, I, I, do you know what, kind of in this scenario, I wouldn't, I wouldn't grass on him. 'Cause I think what this person has done has found basically their own coping mechanism. to remain productive and effective in an environment that isn't allowing them to be productive and effective. They're a great member of staff to take this initiative, to see that then their time is getting booked out anywhere they put focus time, so then to change it. Like, it shouldn't be that. It should be that focus time is respected. But good for them for finding a way to remain productive and efficient in their role.
Al ElliottAgreed.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think it's a case of kind of going to your manager and going, oh, Maybe, maybe just fudge something. So, oh, it's just that client, you know, that, that client that always needs a bit more time. Or, oh, actually, I think, I think that was put a mistake in the diary, actually. And, you know, just fluff around it, just get— make it go away. Or say, oh, do you know what, if you want to sit on a call, this client is really good sitting on that meeting. If you want to, you want to sit in on something, redirect. What do you do with the dog training, Al?
Al ElliottDon't do this, do this. Yeah, stop doing that, do this. Exactly.
Leanne ElliottNot this, that.
Al ElliottYes, not this, that is a much better way.
Leanne ElliottExactly. So just not this, that with with, with your manager to get them in terms of, of a call. And I think it's then going to your team member and go, one, bravo. Two, I'm so sorry that you had to do this to be able to have your focus time respected. It shouldn't be that way. I would ask questions like, is there one person in particular that was always booking in around focus time? Was it in general? Was it ever me? And figure out exactly, because it might just be one person that you might just need to go to a manager like, if they've got focus time in Do not book that in. Or give you permission as an employee that if it's booked in during focus time, that you can decline it. Yes, yes, that's it. That's it.
Al ElliottThat's it. Decline it.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So, I think it's just giving, setting some clear expectations. If somebody has focus work in their diary, that that has to be respected and what that person can do to make sure that it is. And this goes for everybody in In the team, it can be hard for some people to understand that people need this focus time. I remember on my team, I had a person who really needed focus time. It was really hard because we worked in a community centre. So they asked me if they could come in an hour earlier and leave an hour earlier. So they'd basically have an hour before anyone else came where it'd be quiet. And I was like, yeah, of course. And then I had a member of staff kind of go, oh, why does this person leave early? I said, well, because they're doing that. You're welcome to do the same if you'd rather have, you know, have that time. But they were like, no, because then I have to get an extra early bus and I don't want to do that. I was like, well, there you go, you know, flexibility, isn't it? So I think, I think that's what I'd say. Protect the focus time and, and just distract your manager. Not this, that. You don't want to listen to that.
Al ElliottAnd also, I think Leanne said all along that a great manager tends to sort of protect their team from anything external. Imagine yourself as like the first line of defence. Um, and that's what you're doing. It does remind me of, um, I saw this thing on— it was, it might be a tweet or something, I don't know, it was a little while ago. And someone saying, I only discovered today that my diary was public when my manager emailed me and said, we have a meeting this afternoon, but you've got in your diary, get a chicken. Any chance you can move that for this meeting? He's like, oh shit. Which I thought, and also made me think, are you actually getting like a roast chicken? Are you going out and getting a live chicken?
Leanne ElliottOh, like a rotisserie chicken.
Al ElliottYeah, Leanne's having a hungry day today.
Leanne ElliottI am.
Al ElliottYou should have seen her face when I said rotisserie chicken. Like, we don't even eat that.
Leanne ElliottI don't even eat chicken. I'm like, I could eat chicken. Get me to Asda and get me a rotisserie chicken.
Al ElliottOne of those days where you just want to sit in your car and eat a rotisserie chicken with your hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. Oh God, that's made me hungry. Right, okay, let's go and find the vegetarian equivalent of a rotisserie chicken.
Leanne ElliottThere is none.
Al ElliottThere is none.
Leanne ElliottBoo!
Al ElliottNo. So this Thursday we're joined by— we don't know, we've got 3 people and we haven't quite decided who's going to come on yet. Or have we?
Leanne ElliottI don't know. We've got some cool people coming up though. Do you want to tease a couple of them?
Al ElliottYeah, sounds like, like we've got some cool people coming up. Not this Thursday, they're shit.
Leanne ElliottBut no, well, in general, like, we generally kind of say we've got 3 interviews we pre-recorded before the summer break and we're like, which one do we do first? It's all too exciting.
Al ElliottSo we've got We've got someone who's gonna talk about person— the history of personality tests and a workshop on how to choose a personality test. Because Leanne's always saying, don't use Myers-Briggs, but then she doesn't often say— well, you probably do actually, but in the comments.
Leanne ElliottIn every post I do. Whenever I slag off Myers-Briggs, I give an alternative. But does anyone listen to that?
Al ElliottDo they?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottSo we got, we got in, um, a crazy mad scientist who knows everything about this, who's gonna talk us through that. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottUh, psychologists listening will know exactly who that is.
Al ElliottYes. Yes. He's very well known. We've also got someone who can talk about the medical factors of work, how it actually physiologically changes stuff in your body. And the third person is a fabulous storyteller who will teach you how to be a— basically how to tell stories at work, not in a bad way, but in a great way. And he also apparently ruined Star Wars. He used to work with the Muppets. He's just such the coolest guy ever.
Leanne ElliottOh, that's what I'd do today. I'm on the first day of my period, if you hadn't noticed. clocked on, but I want a rotisserie chicken and I want to watch the Muppets.
Al ElliottOh, that's what we can do, right? We'll go and do that.
Leanne ElliottI've got loads of work Tuesday.
Al ElliottSo we'll see you next week. In the meantime—
Leanne ElliottOh, and also on next Tuesday— sorry, Al, sorry to— You're not sorry at all. No, um, we also are bringing back our guests, our guest hosts on Tuesdays.
Al ElliottOh yes, yes.
Leanne ElliottSo next Tuesday we are joined by the one and only Mr. Danny Ware.
Al ElliottDW!
Leanne ElliottYeah, he's great.
Al ElliottAnd then we've also got Bill Yost, I think, coming up as well.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we've got Paula Brockwell, we've got Nicole Williams. Oh, it's so good. And of course, Jakey Jake will be back sometime soon. We just can't shake him off.
Al ElliottWe just can't. We can't. Uh, okay, right. So if you're listening, Jake, we love you. We do. Uh, all right, so we will see you on Thursday for this interview. See you next Tuesday for some more Tuesday fun. In the meantime, it would mean genuinely the world if you left a review for us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We probably get about 4 or 5 a week, and each time we get one, it just makes our flipping day. So yeah, go and do that. Brilliant. Anything else to add, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottNope.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye.
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