Episode 338 · 22 September 2026 · 1:03:08
Are workplace friendships actually a good idea? PLUS! Quiet firing, 80s jobs and Xmas rotas, with Nicole Williams C.Psychol
Featuring Nicole Williams C.Psychol
Are workplace friendships actually a good idea? PLUS! Quiet firing, 80s jobs and Xmas rotas, with Nicole Williams C.Psychol
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A — REVIEWComing up this week in work with Chartered Occupational and Coaching Psychologist Nicole Williams.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholHello, Nicole.
C — REVIEWTwofer, twofer. Are you worried that AI is coming for your job, or is this just another technology innovation that changes how work is done? For decades, people have been replaced by machines. We'll be looking back to the 1980s and the jobs that used to exist before technology replaced them.
A — REVIEWYeah, before you two were born, I think. Also this week, is the Hardest person to fire, the employee that's doing their best. One leader on X this week suggested a 5-step process to nudge them out of the business. Is this actually okay, or are we doing something a bit naughtier? Is it a sneaky way of avoiding hard conversations?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholAnd in Truth or Lie, is being friends with your teammates a good idea? Some argue it fosters belonging and cohesion, while others argue those close-knit groups can turn into cliques. So which is it? I've read the research and I've got the verdict.
A — REVIEWYes, and in the Workplace Surgery, one listener asks, Should parents get priority for Christmas off? One childfree listener was looking forward to spending Christmas Day with her friends, but a colleague with children is putting pressure on her to swap shifts. What should they do?
C — REVIEWConundrum. This, I mean, I know what I'd do, but anyway, Nicole will be sensible. This is Truth, Lies and Work. I'll just get to the point. The award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
A — REVIEWMy name's Al. I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
C — REVIEWAnd my name's Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist, and I'm here to answer them, and together with the help of our brilliant guest host, Nicole Williams, we'll help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
A — REVIEWYou know what we're gonna say next. We'll be right back after a quick word from our lovely, delicious, very benevolent sponsors. Thank you for paying us. Does your experience with AI sound a little like this? You prompt for 20 minutes, the output is polished, is confident, and is completely flipping useless. Well, that's what happens when AI doesn't know anything about your business.
C — REVIEWMm-hmm. But you know what does know something about your business?
A — REVIEWHubSpot.
C — REVIEWHubSpot's AI. It works with your actual customer data, every interaction, every signal your team has generated over time. So instead of prompting and hoping, you ask once and ship it.
A — REVIEWCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, hello, welcome back, welcome back. Nick Hall, we love you. Fun fact, Nicole was at our wedding.
C — REVIEWWe were at Nicole's wedding.
A — REVIEWWe were at Nicole's wedding. Oh yeah, we're the 5.
Nicole Williams C.Psychol10 years ago.
A — REVIEWNo.
C — REVIEWNo.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah, yeah. 10 years ago.
C — REVIEWWell, happy anniversary.
A — REVIEWNicole, if people don't know who you are, they should, because you're a very, very big deal, and I've capitalized those letters. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholSo I'm Nicole Williams. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, uh, like Leanne, um, and I'm also a coaching psychologist as well. I spent many years working in the NHS. I've worked with lots of businesses over the years, but I spent a long time in the NHS. But I now work independently. I work with lots of different businesses from small businesses to large businesses to public sector, still with NHS as well. And I do a lot of work on workplace culture, but specifically the really challenging tricky, difficult teams, uh, where there maybe is a little bit of conflict, um, there's, there's issues, there's challenges, and people just need that little bit of support to try and understand and get underneath what's going on with those teams. And I also do doctoral research in this area as well. So I will be talking about this topic a little bit more later.
C — REVIEWSee, Nicole's a proper psychologist. She's like a proper grown-up one.
A — REVIEWShe is.
C — REVIEWLike, we're going to learn a lot of stuff from Nicole today.
A — REVIEWWe are. We are. And in a kind of full circle moment as well, we've had Sir Ceri Cooper on the pod before. Um, and he's one half of Robinson Cooper, a big, big firm, well, a big deal firm in Manchester. And that's your alumni. Did you used to work there?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYes, I did work there for a short time and, uh, it really, um, helped me to really understand that, um, aspect of workplace wellbeing. That was their real specialist area. So I did a lot of work, um, with organisations on workplace wellbeing as well. Yeah, it was great working with Ivan and Kerry.
C — REVIEWIt's so cool. It's— see, I told you Nicole's proper. Yeah, proper. I met Nicole in 2007.
A — REVIEWWow.
C — REVIEWAlmost 20 years ago.
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWAnd we, we, we worked— it's my first job out of my master's. Um, was it yours as well, Nic?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholIt was, it was. I started a little bit earlier than you. You did.
C — REVIEWYou were my manager. You were my manager. Yeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI was, I really, I mean, I'm, I think it was, we had a manager above us, didn't we? That was the proper manager. I think it was a bit of a kind of practice run at management, to put it very lightly.
C — REVIEWWe, um, all I'll say is, is, is I think, I think we kind of trauma bonded in that role, Nic. Um, and I think, yeah, and it was, it was back in the day when luckily you could leave work there. So we just had these massive like desktop computers and we didn't have mobile, so we could happily close the door at half past 5 and, and walk away. But, um, yeah, fun times. But we bonded, we made friends.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholWe did, we did.
C — REVIEWAnd then your lovely husband Mark became friends with Al.
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWWe had a proper, like, for a few years we were like, we were besties. Yeah, besties.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI really had a great—
A — REVIEWyeah. Do you remember, Nicole, the time when you, you were so cross with me and Mark because we got so drunk at a wine tasting? And I think, if I remember, I fell, actually fell over, and then you turned around, you, you were like, Leanne came over to pick me up and you turned around and Mark was eating, eating crisps from a bin or something.
C — REVIEWCrackers off the floor.
A — REVIEWCrackers off the floor. And you were like, we have to go.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah. That, that, yeah, I, I think I'd erased that from my memory, but you know, you've just brought it, you've brought the trauma back, you see. So yeah, no, there was some, we had some fun times. There was, yeah, some good wine tasting events and things that we used to go to. And, uh, yeah, it was good times. And, uh, yeah. How, how funny is it? All those years ago, you know, meeting in the workplace. Getting to know each other, Leanne, bonding over workplace stuff and, uh, you know, actually really like similar topics to what we're going to talk about later because that friendship at work turning into a real friendship and all that kind of, that was so important in those early days when you're first in a job to have a really good friend that you can trust and rely on. And, uh, it's so nice that, you know, 20-odd years later, we're still here. So it's great. Yeah.
C — REVIEWIt is, it's awesome. So many stories we could talk about, from Dirty Dancing lifts to too much of that popping candy, but we won't, we won't. We— I think we've done enough.
A — REVIEWI think we've done enough damage.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholTalking of stories.
A — REVIEWYes, exactly. Talking of stories, Leanne, what stories have we been looking at this week?
C — REVIEWYeah, it's time for the news roundup. Um, I do miss cueing the jingle. Where do you stand on this, Nicole? You've listened to the show before. Did you like the jingle under the news roundup? We had some feedback from listeners who didn't like it so much.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI think it's all right. I don't mind it. Yeah. Changing things up a little bit. I like it. It's good. It's good.
A — REVIEWMaybe we'll put it back in.
C — REVIEWYeah, maybe. Maybe. Anyway, yes, AI, because we don't talk about AI enough on this show, Al.
A — REVIEWJust remind anyone who's not heard of AI, what are you—
C — REVIEWArtificial intelligence.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah.
C — REVIEWYes. Are you worried that AI is coming for your job? I am. I sure am. We talk about it a lot, about the types of jobs that AI might replace, and we are starting to see it already in terms of things like call centre workers, translators, designers, developers. Models, even influencers, writers, certainly podcasters. And there are very real questions about what happens to people's livelihoods as AI and automation become capable of doing all the work that humans currently do. So my article isn't necessarily highbrow this week.
A — REVIEWRight.
C — REVIEWI did see it in Hello! magazine, but equally, I think it's an interesting topic of conversation.
A — REVIEWOkay. Fair. Okay. It's probably the first time we've ever had an article from Hello!, but go on.
C — REVIEWYes. So this was about People whose jobs technology has already taken. So it looked back at 11 jobs that were still around in the 1980s, but almost completely disappeared. I'll say almost completely disappeared because I'm pretty sure almost all of these still exist here in the Balkans house. So what I thought we'd do is we'd play a little game. So, Al, Nicole, if you want to take it in turns to pick a job, a number between 1 and 11.
A — REVIEWYep.
C — REVIEWAnd I'll tell you what the job is. You tell me what, what they, you think they do if you haven't heard them before. And we'll discuss and banter and have a giggle.
A — REVIEWNicole, you go first. Go for your number.
C — REVIEW9. Number 9.
A — REVIEWGood choice. Solid number there.
C — REVIEWNumber 9.
A — REVIEWI like it. I'm just padding while Leanne finds number 9. Fun fact about 9, you can turn it upside down, it becomes 6. There you go. If you join the top, it becomes 8. Have you found it?
C — REVIEWOh, I have. I think you'll like this one, guys.
A — REVIEWGo on.
C — REVIEWAn encyclopedia salesperson.
A — REVIEWLike Penn off Penn and Teller on Friends with Joey.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholMm-hmm.
A — REVIEWWho sold him one encyclopedia.
C — REVIEWYeah.
A — REVIEWGo on, tell, tell me more.
C — REVIEWWell, I, I, it's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it? I guess it, do you know what? Do we need to actually explain what encyclopedia is? Is that, is that really patronising or are there some young people listening who wouldn't know what that is? Nicole, what do you think?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholNo, I don't know. I, I do remember as a child someone coming to our door and selling us Encyclopaedias, like proper, what were they called? They had a name.
A — REVIEWEncyclopedia Britannica.
C — REVIEWBritannica.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholBritannica. That was it. And my parents being like, yeah, we, we really need to do this. Like, invest in these encyclopaedias.
A — REVIEWYeah. I always felt it was a bit strange though. Like, what, of all the things you wanna sell door to door, something which is contained of 26 books seems a really odd thing to drag around with you. Or did you, did they not have them with them?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI don't know. I think they may have, but I do remember like my, my, my mum like thinking, where are we gonna put all these books? Like, let's make space on the bookshelf for all these like encyclopedias. And it being like, and then I think what ended up happening, computers came, didn't they? And we got Encarta.
A — REVIEWMm-hmm.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholAnd then that was on a CD. And then it was like, you know, don't need, don't need that anymore. And then We don't even need Encarta anymore, do we? So, but yeah, I don't know even if young people would know what Encarta is.
A — REVIEWSo— Or a CD.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI don't know. Or a CD. A CD.
C — REVIEWA CD-ROM. I mean, we don't wanna be patronising, but if there is anyone listening and you're not sure, you know, like Wikipedia, right? And there's a page for a subject. So if you're researching something like cheddar cheese and you look at the Wikipedia, back in the day, in the '80s and the '90s, you had to go to a massive book that was alphabetically organised by topics. You'd go to cheese or cheddar cheese, depending on how— how would it probably be cheese, wouldn't it? And then a sub-thing of cheddar.
A — REVIEWYeah, I'd imagine.
C — REVIEWYeah. And then you'd read it and you'd have to— it would be as new as it could be. So whenever the book was printed, if there'd been updates in cheeseology, you wouldn't necessarily know unless you had the up-to-date Britannia encyclopaedias. So which is why the salespeople always did very well, because if they're 2 out of date, that's how you're doing your research for your school report.
A — REVIEWDoes the world of cheeseology move that quickly?
C — REVIEWI think so.
A — REVIEWI love this. Also, our Encyclopedia Britannica was inherited from, I think, one of our relatives older over here. So ours was like 1960s or something. So if you wanted to look for the moon landing, you know, you straight outta look. There's no moon landing in there. You have to make it up.
C — REVIEWYeah.
A — REVIEWAnyway, shall I pick another number?
C — REVIEWSure.
A — REVIEWI wanna go for 6.
C — REVIEWNumber 6.
A — REVIEWNumber 6. I think it's gonna be a good one.
C — REVIEWA directory assistance operator.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholLike Yellow Pages?
C — REVIEWYeah, but you'd speak to an actual, like you'd phone, you'd speak to an actual human who'd find the number for you.
A — REVIEWYes, Director Enquiries.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI still have that number.
A — REVIEWWhat is it?
Nicole Williams C.Psychol112 112. That's it.
C — REVIEWThat's it?
A — REVIEWYeah, with the 2 kids and the, yeah, these girls. 112 112.
C — REVIEWNo, that's Ask Jeeves. No, different one.
A — REVIEWNo, Ask Jeeves is wrong.
C — REVIEW118 118. No, 118, that's it.
Nicole Williams C.Psychol118 118, that's it, that's it. I knew it was 11 something. Yes. And they never knew. You'd ring them and then they didn't know where the nearest t-shirt printing shop was. They'd be like, we, we don't know, sorry. I think you have to go like 2 hours drive in that direction. Oh yeah.
C — REVIEWYeah. And I think that is why they're kind of like, us older millennials and Gen X are very comfortable, like speaking on the phone because that's how you, the only thing you got something done.
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWWhereas now, I, my, honestly, I genuinely don't think my phone has ringed in about 3 years.
A — REVIEWHas ringed? That's not the way you say it.
C — REVIEWWhat do you mean?
A — REVIEWHas rung.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholHas rung.
C — REVIEWHas rung.
A — REVIEWAh, so 118 has gone, I'm guessing. Uh, 100 used to be the, uh, the operator, I think, used to ring them up and ask them to put you through to something, or—
C — REVIEWYeah.
A — REVIEWUh, yeah, yeah. There was a load about 118. When 118 came out, there was like, there was about 6 of them that you—
C — REVIEWGot your number. Was that the thing? 118118.
A — REVIEWWas that it, mate? Got your number.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholThere was a set— there was a song. I'm sure there was a little tune to make you remember 118118, but I, oh.
C — REVIEWAl, in the power of post-production, can you please find it and insert it here?
A — REVIEWI will, I will. Okay, right. Well, I tell you what, I'm gonna try and look for it now actually. So do you wanna go on? Do you wanna pick your last number?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholOkay. What did we just have?
C — REVIEW6.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholWe had 9 and 6. 2.
C — REVIEWNumber 2 is a milkman.
A — REVIEWOh.
C — REVIEWDo they? I'm sure they do.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI still have a milkman. Do you?
C — REVIEWYeah.
A — REVIEWAnd do you have them in a glass bottle with a foil top?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYes.
A — REVIEWAnd do you have one of those, one of those like milk bottle Johnnies that go on the top, stop the birds from pecking into them?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah, I need one of those. Do you know what? If somebody wants to invent Something and make some good money out of it. I have been trying to find a box, a wooden box that can fit milk bottles in, and really simple, lift the lid, put the milk bottles in, stops the magpies getting to them, and doesn't cost like £60, £70 off Etsy. Like just, just something really simple. So yeah, I, that, that's our problem we have. The birds do drink the milk. But yeah, no, we get milk. I had, we'd get them delivered like 3 times a week. And we get, and we also get fruit and veg delivered as well.
A — REVIEWFrom the milkman or from a fruit and veg man?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholFrom the local farm. Yeah.
A — REVIEWAren't you fancy?
C — REVIEWYeah. I told you Nicole's proper.
A — REVIEWYeah. Yeah. I can imagine Nicole living on some kind of estate in Lincolnshire or something. And she's got a milkman and a gardener and she's probably got a pool person as well.
C — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI'd love to add the second 2, but no, no, unfortunately my garden is not worthy of a gardener, to be honest. But yeah, keep the milkman going because, you know, these farms like need support and stuff like that. So I think all for keeping these farming businesses alive and all of that jazz. So yeah.
A — REVIEWThere you go, Leanne, in your face.
C — REVIEWWell, we used to have a milkman when I was growing up, and my mum and dad still live in the same house.
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWWe used to have a milkman and then milkman went away.
A — REVIEWAlthough it's probably milk person.
C — REVIEWTrue. Milk person.
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWAlthough it was specifically a man that we had when I was growing up. There you go. Well, that's good. I'm glad to hear the milk people are still going. I'll run through a couple of others. An elevator operator. I think fancy places still might have them.
A — REVIEWDo you know the problem with that job is the business is just up and down.
C — REVIEWHey, uh, a video store clerk. Used to go to Blockbuster on a weekend.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYes, Blockbuster.
C — REVIEWAlways nice. Um, a film projectionist. Um, so that was when they handed the reels of film, like in the, in the cinemas and stuff.
A — REVIEWApparently, if you were to watch those, those, um, if you were in the cinema watching them, if you looked out for what they called a cigarette burn, It was a little sort of brown, a little mark or circle that appeared in the top right of the, of the thing. That is the bit that tells the projectionist that they need to change to the next reel. So they need to load the next reel.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholRight.
A — REVIEWSo that, yeah, it needs to be burnt into the actual, well, not burnt in, but you know, it'll be imprinted.
C — REVIEWIs that, have you done that?
A — REVIEWHave I done that?
C — REVIEWYeah. We have a joke, like Al has done every job known to man to the point where even after like however many years I've been with him, He'll turn to me and go, ah, yes, I worked on the railways when I was a kid. And I'm like, what?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholWhen?
A — REVIEWI did. I did. I worked at the railways. I worked in a pig farm. I actually, my job was, and I think, I think they were making, I think they were making this up, but my job was to, was to help the pigs have sex. They were like, right, you need to guide the pig in. And I'm like, I don't think this is a— I was only like 13 on work experience. Like, I don't think this is a real job. And they're like, no, no, no, no, you have to do it. And so I think it was one of those like, you know, go and get along. stand or some tartan paint or something, and they just sent me to go. Anyway, sorry, that— I really— but when you were saying that, I was like, oh, like projectionist. Yes, I know I'm never a projectionist, but we used to have a cine— I said this a couple of weeks ago— used to have a cine thing in my primary school. They'd roll it in and it'd be— and we'd play on that. And then—
C — REVIEWHe's so old.
A — REVIEWYeah, I'm so old.
C — REVIEWAnyway, and a couple of others that we do have here in Bosni-Herzegovina, a toll booth operator. We sure do. They still sit in the Sit in there and take your pennies. A filling station attendant. We still have them as well at the petrol station.
A — REVIEWThey come out and fill your car up.
C — REVIEWYeah.
A — REVIEWIn fact, some of them actually have stickers saying self-service is not allowed. You have to, you have to wait for the, for the person to come out and fill it up.
C — REVIEWAnd the final one, which must still exist, a watch winder.
A — REVIEWWatch winder?
C — REVIEWWatch winder. These were specialists working with mechanical and analogue watches, keeping them working, maintaining or repairing timepieces. They needed far more human attention than device would use today. I mean, I've seen Downton Abbey and that was part of the—
Nicole Williams C.PsycholWas it?
C — REVIEWJobs, wasn't it? Was to wind the grandfather clocks and stuff.
A — REVIEWHmm.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholHmm.
A — REVIEWYou, you must have a grandfather clock in your estate, Nicole. Do you, do you have someone who comes in and just winds it up? Is that what happens? Or does Mark wind everything up?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholMark does a lot of winding up, to be honest. Yeah.
C — REVIEWSo.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYou know him well, so yeah.
A — REVIEWI want to see if I've got this 118 advert, so I'm going to play it and I don't know whether it's going to come out on the track, but let's see. Let's see. It was the Rocky theme tune.
C — REVIEWI couldn't hear it.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYou couldn't hear it? No, I can't hear it.
C — REVIEWIt did, it goes 118, what's got your number?
A — REVIEWYeah, and there's, and there's even, there's even not Rod Hull and Emilia. Who was the green duck? I hate that duck. What was the green duck? Orville. And Ken, Kevin something. Keith. Keith and Orville. Keith and Orville was in the advert.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah.
A — REVIEWOh, I, I sadly, I don't think they're anymore. I think they're gone. But anyway, Lee, fabulous, fabulous segment. I enjoyed that Very, very much. I can't get my notes back up either. Let me just try and get rid of, uh, the YouTube thing for a second. Okay, I've got them back up. Okay, anything else to add, love?
C — REVIEWNo, I guess just a little bit of reassurance perhaps that these jobs, you know, typically replaced and something else will come along. And maybe that's the scary thing about AI. We're not quite sure what it is, even if we live to see the end of the decade, which apparently according to the news last week, we might not. But it's fine, it's fine. I'll leave a link in the show notes.
A — REVIEWIt's— anyway, right, moving on to something perhaps— I don't know whether this is going to be This could be less fun. Certainly. Uh, there's, there's a guy on Twitter called Ryan Deiss. If some of the old school marketers remember a company called Digital Marketer, that was one of his companies. Um, I, I loved that back in the day, about 20 years ago, 15 years ago. Uh, but he's just basically, he's, he's kind of a big deal, but also a really nice guy. And he runs quite a few companies. He does, like, talks a lot about running a company from a sort of operative or CEO point of view. So one of his tweets said recently, the hardest person you'll ever fire is the one trying to do their best. They care, they're trying, but they're missing deadlines, botching work, and dragging the team down. So I use a 5-step process that lets them leave with dignity, and most resign before I ever need to fire them. And I do believe that this guy does want, you know, doesn't want the best for the, for, for his employees. My thoughts were, as a business owner, I'd look at this and go, okay, this looks, this looks legit, but I want you to tell me whether it is or not.
C — REVIEWSo just so we're clear, this is somebody who is trying really hard, but just still not hitting the mark. Yep. So rather than necessarily sacking this person, yep, they'll gently performance manage 'em out to the point where they'll hopefully hand in their notice before they have to sack them.
A — REVIEWSee, now, us business owners wouldn't use the word performance manage out or whatever you just said there, because that's obviously very, you know, that's your world. But we would say yes, we would basically—
C — REVIEWI'm just gonna manage them out.
A — REVIEWI, yeah, I'd basically hope they're gonna leave. Okay. Hope they're gonna quit. Okay. Um, so if I— Nicole, can I come to you first? First of all, These, these 5 steps are number 1, clarify before you blame. So in other words, work out whether it actually is their fault or whether it's someone else's fault. Secondly, the accountability conversation. This is where they say, hey, I know this fell through. I know you care. So I'm gonna assume this failure is on us leaders. We either failed to clarify expectations or failed to provide the resources to succeed. Which brings me on to number 3, confirm they do have the resources. Do you have everything you need? to succeed. And 4, the performance improvement plan. So this is, I'm guessing, after it's escalated more, that's when you go through a PIP with 30 to 90 days. And step 5, let them leave on their own terms. So if none of that works, we let team members resign before starting a PIP and still receive the same separation pay they would've earned during the PIP. Most take it, they know they're failing. This lets them walk away with dignity. Nicole, pull that apart. Tell us what's good and what maybe not so good.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholIt's an interesting one, isn't it? I'd be interested to know how successful that is. Like, how, on how many occasions do they, do people actually come to the conclusion that they're going to leave? Or do they just go, no, I'm still not leaving? You know, because what are their other opportunities? What are, are they supported after they leave to find another job, to find another employment? Um, all of that side of it. Um, I guess if it's a supportive process, I'm all for that. I think if somebody is performance managed in a supportive way, but I think again, what's the agenda? So is the agenda to, to manage them in order to prove that they can't do the job, or you support performance manage them to help them improve and get better and potentially be able to fulfil a role in your business or your company, whether it's the same role or a different role. So, what's the agenda there? You're managing them to prove that they can't do the job, or you're managing them to try and support them to stay in the job and fulfil and succeed? I also, I don't know, I mean, I'm not an HR expert, but where does it teeter on the constructive dismissal end of things as well? Probably more questions. And thoughts around this at the moment.
C — REVIEWYeah, I agree. What's the agenda? Like, it— how it was set up, and maybe this was just for the power of social media to get some attention, but how it was set up made it sound like, this is how I get rid of people when they're not performing, rather than, this is how I re-motivate and get back on track people when they're falling behind, and most of them end up staying and smashing it. Do you know what I mean? Like the way it's phrased makes it sound like it doesn't really matter how well they'll do during that period. It sounds like an empty, like, do you have all the resources you need?
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWWell, clearly not because something's not working. And also, how do I necessarily know what resource I need if things aren't working? It just sounds like it's a foregone conclusion this person is gonna be exited from the business, and that feels a bit icky to me.
A — REVIEWYeah. Well, to be fair, there's, it's only got 10,000 views, but 238 bookmarks. So that shows that people are looking, it's going, Great. Okay. This sounds like a good thing, a good framework to follow. And you are saying that you have to be a little bit careful. I suppose the question I've got is, if I'm a manager or if I'm an employee, an employer, so let's say I'm a founder and it's my own business, it's gonna cost me money if I have to go through a lengthy process of like 6 months of just seeing if this person's gonna get better. I just wanna get rid and move on.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah.
A — REVIEWBut what you're telling me is that I shouldn't be doing that. That's not the attitude I should have.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI can empathise with people, particularly small businesses where, you know, this can be a real kind of, you know, it feels like a real drain on your costs and expenses if you've got somebody who isn't performing and you're a small business and budgets are tight and all of that stuff. Totally understand that. I think you can't have one extreme or the other. You've gotta have a balance of those managing those two. 2 things. And I also— what also came to mind was we also pin a lot down on that individual, don't we? And actually, are we looking at whether the, the organization we are, the system that we're creating for that person to function, is, is that supporting them and setting them up in the best way as well? So again, where's our accountability as a business, as a business leader, as an owner? To make sure that we're creating the conditions that somebody is able to, you know, is it all down to that individual or are we, what is it, the system that they're operating in as well? So yeah, it's complex. I mean, look, it's a method, isn't it? It's a method. Whether it will come back to bite them in the end, going through that kind of process, I guess it depends how it feels from the employee's perspective as well, doesn't it?
A — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholAnd I'd be interested to know how employees felt going through that kind of process as well.
A — REVIEWVery good point. And I should point out that Ryan Dyson is based in the States, where I believe it's slightly easier to fire people. If Suits is anything to go by, then they just fire people without anything. They just go, you're fired, and then they have to clear the desk. Whereas in the UK or different places, HR rules— none of us here are HR experts, but you're saying that HR rules, you have to be a little bit careful of that.
C — REVIEWYeah, and I think Nic's right. It points to the, the kind of operating environment. What else is happening, isn't it? Like, for you to have, have such a policy in place, which, or framework in place, means it must happen fairly frequently. So my question is, why are you continuing to bring people into your business who aren't qualified or capable of doing the job?
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWYou're wasting your time, you're wasting their time, you're putting extra stress on, on the team, potentially going, you know, through kind of unlawful dismissals. It just seems like you're putting a lot of effort onto how to get somebody out of your business when maybe if you focus on getting the right people in, it might not be much of a, as much of a thing.
A — REVIEWVery nice. Very nice. Okay, so that's the end of the news roundup. We, uh, we are going to take a very short break and then we're gonna come back with Nicole's truth or lie. This is, I'm really looking forward to this. It's gonna be a good one. See you in a second.
C — REVIEWWelcome to the break.
A — REVIEWYes, my favourite part of the show. They, these, these 2 idiots have stopped talking.
C — REVIEWYes, I want to tell you about my new No, that's a lie. It's my old favourite podcast.
A — REVIEWI've been on this podcast for a while. Didn't know where that was going. Didn't know where that was going.
C — REVIEWIt is called I Digress. It is hosted by Troy Sandage, and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
A — REVIEWYes, it's got shows that are under 30 minutes, and I Digress helps eliminate complexity, complications, and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies that achieve scalable and sustainable success. That's what it says here.
C — REVIEWAnd if you do want to hear a really personal story, go to episode 136. This is Troy's honest account of fatherhood, killing hustle culture, and what really matters when you stop performing and start living with intention.
A — REVIEWListen to I Digress wherever you get your podcasts.
C — REVIEWThat concludes the break.
A — REVIEWLet's return to the scheduled programming.
C — REVIEWBack to the studio.
A — REVIEWWelcome back. Welcome back to Truth or Lie. It's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up.
C — REVIEWYes, we do. And this week we are asking if friends at work are a good idea. You know what it's like if you've got a work bestie, the days just seem to go quicker. They feel more fun. You feel like you belong and teamwork just seems to happen pretty naturally. But what if those close friendship groups turn into cliques and instead of being part of a team, You start to feel like a bit of an outsider. Well, this week, that's what we're asking. Truth or lie? Close-knit teams make better teams. Nicole, over to you.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholThanks, Leanne. So yeah, workplace friendships. Do we think they make teams stronger? Is that a truth or a lie? So let's dig into this a bit. And I think most of us might instinctively say that this one is true, and if you think about a really good team that you've worked in, there is a fair chance that people actually really liked each other. Um, you know, you've, you've probably chatted about things outside of work, had a laugh together, helped each other out. You know, maybe some of those relationships became genuine friendships, very much like us, Leanne. You know, that I'd say that's very much how our friendship started out. So intuitively, that makes sense. If I know you, I trust you, I like, I feel like I belong with you, you'd probably expect us to work better together. And actually, there is quite a lot of research saying that is true. So, one large meta-analysis in 2021 looked across research involving more than 12,000 people. That's quite a big meta-analysis, and they wanted to see whether more cohesive teams actually performed better. So overall, the researchers found that more cohesive teams did tend to perform better. But there's also research specifically looking at friendships. So a study, probably going back a little bit further in 2015, looked at 168 employees working in an insurance company. They looked at what they called multiplex relationships, which sounds quite complicated, but it essentially means a relationship Where somebody is both your colleague and your friend. And they found that people with more of these relationships tended to receive better performance ratings from their managers. So actually, if I've got a friend at work, I'm actually, my manager sees me performing better than if I didn't. They then conducted a study with 182 people working in restaurants and retail. And That helped them to understand why these relationships might actually be beneficial. And one of those important ingredients was trust. And that makes sense psychologically. Friends can be an important source, source of support at work. We can ask them for help. We can share information. We can admit when we're struggling. We might feel safer asking a question or admitting that we don't know something. So, at this point, workplace friendships makes teams stronger is looking pretty true.
C — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholBut there's always a but. There is a catch. So, if we go back to that larger study that I talked about earlier on team cohesion, there's a really interesting distinction. So, the strongest relationship with performance wasn't simply social cohesion, which is essentially how much people liked each other and enjoyed spending time with each other. But it was task cohesion, which is people being united around what the team is actually there to try and achieve. That was more strongly related to performance. So, a team getting on brilliantly isn't necessarily the same as a team working brilliantly. And friendship itself can also create some complications. Whilst it can be really good, it can make things a little bit messy at times. Imagine having to give difficult feedback to somebody that you'd just gone for drinks with on a Friday, or knowing something, you know, professionally that you can't share with a close friend. You know, you make these close bonds and friendships, and then you're suddenly having to do like business stuff with them or, or have a difficult conversation. So, researchers call that maintenance difficulty, and essentially it's that effort involved in managing being somebody's friend and their colleague at the same time. Hmm. And that was associated with emotional exhaustion. But there's also another potential problem with close friendship, uh, close relationships at work. And this is where it gets particularly interesting for me because humans, um, don't just form relationships, we form groups. And once there's a strong sense of us, it's surprisingly easy for there also to be, um, a them. Researchers sometimes talk about fault lines and fault lines in teams, and that's basically a potential dividing line where one team starts splitting into smaller teams or smaller subgroups. So a 2023 meta-analysis brought together 96 studies looking at these team fault lines, and it found that when those divisions resulted in subgroups forming, They could reduce the quality of interaction across the wider team, which could ultimately affect performance. So I think there is an important caveat here. Having subgroups isn't inherently bad. So having a close group of friends at work doesn't necessarily make you a toxic workplace clique either. Pretty much every workplace will have smaller friendship groups. The warning signs appear when the boundaries around those relationships start affecting the wider team and how it operates. And importantly, that doesn't necessarily start with bad intentions either. So, for example, if I've got a quick question, it's probably easier when I'm at work to message my colleague that I'm closest to. We might have our own little shorthand that we use, or we might talk about something over lunch. Perhaps a few of us have got a WhatsApp group already. WhatsApp groups is just becoming a really frequent thing that I find in my work now at the moment, where these groups are kind of set up, little WhatsApp groups that they talk to each other through. And maybe somebody shares something really useful on there. So none of us in that are doing anything necessarily to exclude somebody on purpose, but over time, that information, that influence. And even that decision-making can start kind of traveling through those friendship networks. And that's where being on the inside or the outside of the group can start to matter. And that's where a close friendship group can start to have these clique-like effects. The issue isn't really that people are too friendly. It's when the membership of that group starts affecting your experience of work. So who gets, gets information first? Who gets invited to conversations? Whose opinion carries the weight? Who gets access to opportunities? Who gets defended when they're challenged? Who gets left on the outside? So, there is another study that I just want to mention as well. I particularly like because it shows that friendship itself isn't really the villain here. So, researchers looked at 672 people working across 148 teams and mapped the relationship between them. And they found that friendships could actually help team performance when those friendships crossed the boundaries between different subgroups. So in other words, what researchers sometimes call bridging relationships. So if friendships crisscross a team, connecting people across different roles and levels and professional groups or social groups, they can act as bridges. And they help information travel and keep smaller groups connected to the wider team. And I think that gives us a much, much better question than simply asking, are people in this team friends? What we should be asking is, who is friends with whom? And what effect does that have on everyone else? And this is particularly interesting to me because my doctoral research looks at cliques, clique-driven incivility and bullying, particularly in healthcare teams. So I'm interested in what happens when someone, some of these groups dynamics become much more problematic. And one of the things I think we need to remember is that the same group can be experienced very differently depending on where you are standing. So a group can feel incredibly supportive and trusting and psychologically safe to the people inside it, but while someone outside that group experiences exclusion and a lack of influence, or even just feeling unsafe challenging its members. So workplace friendships. make teams stronger. Do we think it's a truth or a lie? I'm giving this one truth, but with a fairly substantial caveat. Friendship can give us trust, support, belonging, and connection, and those things can absolutely help people and teams perform. But friendship itself isn't the magic ingredient. Friendship helps when it creates trust, cohesion, and belonging across a team. It becomes problematic when it creates those things for some people at the expense of others.
A — REVIEWCan I ask a question? So if, imagine that I'm a manager and I've got a team of 10, like you said before, and I noticed that 4 of them are really close, probably got WhatsApp groups, as you said, special language, et cetera. Am I supposed to do something about that? Am I supposed to split them up like I'm a teacher or something, or?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholThat's really interesting. Are you talking from the perspective if you were a manager?
A — REVIEWYes.
C — REVIEWYes.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholIn that respect. Yeah. This is such a common problem. Um, or if I say it's a problem, an issue, I suppose. Um, and it's the way we, world we live in, isn't it now with social media? Those groups are naturally going to emerge. I think the natural thing that, um, managers want to do instinctively in that situation is break up a group. They want to go, right, stop the WhatsApp groups, or you're not sitting together, separate people. But you've got to think those groups emerge because they're self-serving to the group. It creates trust, belonging, safety. And that might exist in that group because maybe it doesn't exist in the broader team. You know, ideally they wouldn't need to form those groups if broadly across the team they felt safe and secure and trusted, trusting of others, et cetera. So if you start to break that group up, all you're going to then create is some defensiveness and a sense of unhappiness in that team because you've broken down that trusting network for them. So the idea is to actually try and broaden that group out in a sense, rather than break it up. It's about how do we try and promote inclusion and try and get Um, those narratives that are happening informally to happen in a more open, transparent space. So it does come down to communication as a manager, where are you having those important conversations with everybody? And it's not happening on the sidelines in the informal spaces. It's really tricky though to manage.
C — REVIEWI think we've seen a lot of this as well, haven't we, with the clients that we've worked with, the entrepreneurs we've worked with, it tends to fall into 2 camps where they're like, Oh, everyone's like really, really gets on and really good mates, but nothing's getting done the way that I want it to. Or it's like, I just want everyone to be friends, and right now there's no sense of camaraderie, but performance is really high and everyone's smashing it. And it's usually the same conversation. So I love what you were saying about kind of the difference between social cohesion and task cohesion. Actually, task cohesion is probably more important from what you said in terms of performance.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah.
C — REVIEWAnd I also think if you've got really great task cohesion, or if you focus on that, I feel like social cohesion grows from that because then people have a bit more kind of trust and respect that you're helping my job be easier by what you're doing. Is that fair?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah, I think so. And I think, I think you can, you can start with the task cohesion. Um, I think, you know, you can create clarity, can't you, about this is what we're all aiming for, this is what we're striving towards, this is our goal, this is, you know, our Central point. I think the social cohesion comes out of building that trust, and that's got to grow over time. And so I think as a manager, you can almost kind of, you, in some ways, maybe it's easier to instigate the task cohesion because you can set the parameters about the goals and what we're all striving to. But yeah, that social cohesion, if you can achieve that as well.
A — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholIt's about creating that culture of psychological safety and trust across the whole team. And the 2 things together, really effective. Um, but yeah, I think it can be really challenging to achieve that at times for a lot of business owners.
A — REVIEWNicole, if people want to learn a bit more about your doctoral research, is there a place they can go?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYes. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, and I do talk a lot about the topics from my research on there. And yeah, if anybody is interested, I also have shared some work that's come out of my research on LinkedIn as well, all about clique dynamics in workplaces. So yeah, find me on LinkedIn. I've got some resources people can download, or you can even just drop me a message if you're curious.
A — REVIEWTime for my favourite time of the week. It is time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Nicole this week. Don't worry, Leanne, I will ask you your opinion, but It's gonna be, it's gonna be all about Nicole this week. We don't often get a chance to have Nicole on. I hope you come back again. I really do. Okay, so question number 1, uh, Nicole, it's about the biggest red flags of a toxic workplace. It says, Hi, Al and Leanne and Nicole. People talk a lot about toxic workplace cultures, but the warning signs don't always seem obvious when you first join. I've read it could be high turnover, unrealistic expectations, bad leadership, or how people are treated when something goes wrong. So, what are the biggest red flags that tell you a workplace culture is unhealthy? What should I be looking out for, Nicole?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholThat's a really good question because it isn't obvious always. And, um, so generally when I end up working with organizations that are experiencing workplace toxicity, for want of a better word. It can be quite far down the line where it's blatantly obvious that there are problems because people are leaving. There's a huge amount of sickness absence. There's conflict. There's people not talking to each other. There's grievances. There's dis— or you name it. There's all that stuff going on. Often though, those red flags would've been there a lot earlier on. And so what the work that I tend to do doesn't just look at what's on the top of that iceberg. It looks at like what's underneath it. What's, what are the conditions that's driving some of that? And there's lots of things. But if I focus on maybe a couple of red flags would be the key foundation, I believe, for any team, functioning team, is psychological safety and trust. It's such a huge foundation. So if you're finding that there just isn't, isn't the dialogue that's going on, the openness, the transparency, the information, the free flowing of information, the groups kind of people getting information from their groups and not going through formal channels, not coming to leaders with stuff, not opening up, not sharing, tensions, sensitivities, just People treading on those kind of eggshells around other people. But again, you have to really get curious to uncover some of that stuff. But, you know, people feeling like, um, you know, do you just notice there's these little rumblings going on, little tensions between people? Often it's a sign underlying that there's this lack of psychological safety and this lack of trust between colleagues that's bubbling away underneath, and it's really trying to get to the bottom of why does that exist. And sometimes these things can go back years. Sometimes there's things that have happened in a team that have, um, led to this perception that people start to shape, um, this, this narrative that plays out. Um, and, and then if you leave it and you don't address it, you start to see the bigger red flags, the more noticeable, obvious stuff. So it is really tricky. And I just want to kind of reassure anyone who is working with this stuff in their team. It is really tricky. It can be quite messy, quite muddy stuff, um, to really unpick. But the key thing is to just try and start noticing it, try and get curious and get underneath it if you can, um, and early as you can, even if you just think, oh, I've just noticed that person's being left out of this or whatever. Oh, I wonder what's going on here. You know, that, that's a good starting point. Um, I'm curious to know what, what Leanne thinks as well from her point of view.
C — REVIEWYeah, all of that. I agree with all of that. Do you know what's funny? When you were talking about that, I was, I was remembering a time after the back of the conversation of cliques as well, when I worked in another organization and, and there was, there was kind of my team and an adjacent team that we were separate in terms of functionality and location, but there was such a lack of trust between us and the other team to the point where we try and build bridges and we try and do it, and then we then have people move over from the other team to our team, then go, oh, I get it now, you really can't trust them, can you? Like, I know, right? Um, but anyway, that aside, I think all of that's really, really great advice. And the one thing I'd say is, because we don't know kind of why you're asking this in terms of whether you're a manager at an organization, you're starting to notice some of these things, or you're an employee that's trying to assess whether a culture is a good fit for you. If it is the latter, I think my thought would be always think about I, to an extent, I think toxic culture and kind of bullies can be somewhat subjective. So I remember talking to Dr. Audrey Tang about this and she was like, you can be the right package at the wrong address. So if I worked in a very kind of cutthroat sales environment that was all hustle, kind of, there are people that would absolutely adore that. I would find it toxic and horrible because That kind of sharking and, you know, but there are other people that would really get on board with that. There's going to be other people that might work in an organization that, that feels very supportive and very trusting and maybe might feel a bit bureaucratic and a bit slow at times. So I think a lot of it as well as thinking about what your values are, what's important to you in terms of, of your goals and your lifestyle and how you want work to integrate with all of that, to identify what your red flags would be.
A — REVIEWYeah.
C — REVIEWSo, working constantly overtime without any pay, not being expected to take all of your paid annual leave, um, all of those types of things that for you would feel toxic, I think is just as important as trying to figure out whether the environment you're in is toxic. Because I think you're right, Nicole. I think when it gets to that point, it's really obvious. You can just feel the tension, can't you?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholIt is about stopping and noticing, you know, just taking a step back and noticing what's going on around me. What's become normalized here? What if I, you know, what would seem weird to me if I stepped into this organization as a fresh new person? You know, all of those things.
A — REVIEWMakes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. Thank you so much. Okay. So, I've got question number 2. Why does my colleague hate me? So, this person writes, there's someone at work who really seems to dislike me, and I genuinely have no idea why. He's friendly and chatty with everyone else, but barely acknowledges me, avoids sitting near me. Ignores me when I speak to him and has even walked away when I've asked a work-related question. Oh my goodness. I've never had an argument with him or done anything to my knowledge that has upset him, but he is making working together a bit awkward. Nicole, should I ask him directly what his problem is?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholFirst of all, I'm sorry if this is having an impact on your experience at work because it can feel really isolating when this sort of thing happens. In a workplace or in a team. So, the first thing I wouldn't, I'd want to say is, I know the next step might be to ask them what their problem is, but let's not assume that they have a problem with you in the first place. So, it comes back to some of the things we were talking about before about sometimes these behaviours are not intentional. Yes, you know, it's this intention versus impact issue, isn't it? Where people engaging in behaviors that are not necessarily intentional, but it's having a negative impact and they may be not understanding that impact that that's having. Um, it could be intentional, but we just, we just don't know. And maybe it's about keeping a bit of an open mind at this stage about where this behavior is coming from. Um, I'd also want to know, is this, is this, is this individual behavior or is this part of a group? So are there other people as part of the group this person's in that's also isolating you and not engaging with you? Or is it just this individual? So again, you know, if it's part of a group, this person might not be talking to you because they're getting everything they need from the group that they're in, and they feel that they've built that trust, they've built that connection, that belonging with them, and, and actually it just doesn't serve them to, to break out of that, for example. And they might, again, they just might not recognize that you're not part of that group or you're part of or connected into that. So, I guess it's, it's trying to maybe not going in with, what, what's your problem? Why are you leaving me out? But maybe going, because that might just make them feel a bit more defensive and a bit like, well, okay, what, what's this all about? If they don't quite recognize the impact their behavior is having.
C — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholUm, just going in with some curiosity. Um, you know, things like, look, I've noticed that we're working on the same project, but I noticed we haven't really talked to each other about it much. You know, do you think it'd be worth us getting some time in together? So starting to build that communication and, and show that you're someone that he can trust, that he can build a work relationship with that's positive, that's helpful, that's advantageous. All of those things would be maybe a good start. And then depending how that goes, you can see how the relationship develops from there. Um, yeah. What are your thoughts, Leanne, on that?
C — REVIEWYeah, I agree. It's really tricky, isn't it? I mean, I don't know. I mean, my cheesy kind of, kind of talk to my girlfriends, if there was, if it was their kind of what they were telling me, I'd be like, maybe he fancies you. Maybe he's in love with you. You know, like pigtails on a playground. Like, oh, he barely just ignores you and walks away because he's so flustered because you're so gorgeous.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholCould be.
C — REVIEWIt could be, you never know. I think—
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYou just don't know.
C — REVIEWYou just don't know. You don't know. Al ignored me for the first 18 months after we met, so true story. Anyway, I think it's whether it's how much is this impacting your work. I think I'd want to know, like, if I could ask more questions, because I think if he's chatting with everyone else but he barely acknowledges you and he doesn't sit next to you, then whatever, who cares, you know, as long as He's not making your job harder, then this just isn't somebody that you're gonna have a, a very friendly relationship with. And from what we've heard from, from Nicole's truth or lie, that doesn't necessarily matter in terms of your performance at work. But if they're walking, walking away when you're trying to ask them a work-related question, that's when I think there's a bit of an issue there. So I agree with Nicole, like, try and get in a bit of time with that person, have a very specific conversation, even maybe say, these are the 3 points that I wanna want to talk to you about. Maybe you bring in another colleague into that conversation as well, so it doesn't feel quite as kind of head-to-head. Or of course, I mean, you haven't said that this person is, is kind of in a manager role or not. So assuming they are just a colleague, this might be something that if you do that and it still doesn't work, you, you escalate to your manager if it's making your job harder or it's impacting your performance. If they just don't want to be your mate, maybe they just don't want to be.
A — REVIEWOh, be careful. Snitches get stitches. Don't be, uh, don't be telling the manager about that. That is a tough one, but, uh, I think that that's probably as, as good advice as anyone's ever gonna get without seeing more specifics. And I was asking more follow-up questions. I have question number 3 here, which is quite a funny one. And, and it, it's funny cuz you're, you're a parent, Nicole, and we are not. So, uh, so I'd be interested in your thoughts and whether they differ to ours.
C — REVIEWI should say as well, trigger warning, if anyone is really offended talking about the C word in September, maybe skip ahead a few minutes.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholIt's Christmas.
C — REVIEWI do. I have one friend that's like, mm-mm. Hard no.
A — REVIEWOh yeah, yeah, no, she's— is that the same one who takes the, takes the Christmas tree down on Boxing Day?
C — REVIEWOn Boxing Day!
A — REVIEWWho does that?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI—
A — REVIEWOh, crazy.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah, that's not allowed in our house.
A — REVIEWNo, we leave ours, we leave ours up until like the end of January or something.
C — REVIEWAs long as it's alive, it stays up.
A — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholOh, that's bad luck, isn't it?
A — REVIEWMaybe that's why.
C — REVIEWMaybe that explains everything.
A — REVIEWAnyway, anyway, so this person, this person who says that I work in a hospital where we rotate who works Christmas each year. This year I'm due to work, but because someone else has picked up the shift, one of us can have the day off. Hey! I've worked more holidays than anyone else, so technically it's my turn, but a colleague with young children has asked me to give it up so she can spend Christmas morning with them. She says it's different for me because my children are adults, and a few colleagues seem to agree. Am I being selfish if I take the day off anyway? Now, sorry, I just realised now, actually.
C — REVIEWYeah, me too.
A — REVIEWI thought this was about someone who didn't have kids, but this is someone whose kids are adults.
C — REVIEWAdults, right?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah. Okay.
A — REVIEWRight. Got it. Sorry, Nicole, what are your thoughts?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI have a heavy sigh with this one because having, I've worked in the NHS. This is, this just came up every year, every year, this issue. I think this, this gets me thinking a little bit more about situational leadership stuff, because my question is, where's the manager's involvement with all of this as well? Um, I, I've worked with so many managers who, I guess their style is a little bit more laissez-faire and they will go, right, um, it's up to, you know, I, I let, I let my teams, I trust my team. I let them sort these things out. I let them come up with the solutions. You know, they're on it. They know what they're doing. That is great in some scenarios, you know, trust your team to come up with ideas. Have initiative, you know, have autonomy, all of that stuff. Brilliant. But there's just some scenarios where if you just go, you lot work this out, you just know it's going to end in problems. And Christmas is the classic case because I think if you don't, as a manager, set some kind of expectation or system or process around something like that, which Really is a fundamental issue around fairness, isn't it? About what is fair here? Like, and everyone's idea of fairness is going to be different. So what's fair to me might feel differently fair to you too. Like, I've got children. I might say, well, it's only fair that I have the day off because I've got young children. But you might go, but I've worked hard all year and I've got family motives to see, and I want to take that day off. So what is fair really? And it's based, it's a very.
C — REVIEWYeah.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholSubjective thing, isn't it? So there's something about actually, how do you create a system that's fair rather than it being a subjective decision about what is fair in this scenario? And I think when that doesn't exist, then it creates these debates and these arguments amongst colleagues. It actually can waste a lot of time and a lot of energy and create a lot of anguish for people because the person who doesn't get that day. is gonna feel resentful and hurt by it. Where sometimes if you take that decision out of the equation, that debate about between them about what's fair and go, right, this is the process. If you had the day off this year, the next person gets it next year or whatever. Or if we've got a spare day, this is how we're going to deal with it in a fair way for everybody. Sometimes it just takes that argument out of the equation.
C — REVIEWI once worked in a team where, as a manager, where we had to, we weren't seeing any, any customers between Christmas. It was a Christmas and New Year break. We always had Christmas, Christmas Day, but all the kind of the public holidays. But we had to have 2 people in the centre should anyone drop in or should somebody need to be on hand for compliance or whoever else. So, we'd always kind of approach it, or I'd kind of approach it pretty early and go, is there anybody who isn't bothered? Anybody who would rather work these really quiet days between Christmas and New Year? Well, let's be honest, you're probably going to sit in the—
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah.
C — REVIEWsit in the branch and do scrape around for stuff to do and then probably read a book for, you know, there's not a lot to do, is there, unless something comes in. So we'd ask for volunteers, is anyone not bothered? If you're not bothered, which days would you prefer to work? Blah, blah. And that would usually figure out 80% of it. And then you kind of, yeah, you kind of go, right, well, we need, can we rotate it in a way so everyone has to come in at least once? Or, you know, you, you kind of figure it out in that sense. And then, yeah, there might be an occasion where you go, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have You're gonna have to come in on that day. So I think there's, there's definitely so much of it can be figured out by just looking at it. Yeah, further away. And like you said, led by a manager, having a process and actually sticking to it. In terms of this person, but I would say we don't have children, and equally we have brothers and sisters who do have children from 30 right down to like 18 months, 2 years. We understand how special Christmas is for families with young children. We, we've seen it, we get to experience it still. It's beautiful. That doesn't make your Christmas any more worthy than somebody that has adult children or just wants to go and spend time with their friends, if that is a special time of year for them. So I think there can be an element of entitlement, perhaps, dare I say it. And, and I think we just need to be a bit kinder to people In terms of if that day is also special to them for whatever reason, then that is, that is, that is valid enough. So you are well within your rights. So this is a special day for you to go, no, it's my turn. This is what's been agreed. I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna have Christmas Day off. What I would say is if you're really not bothered and it might get you in the good books with Karen because she wants to have Christmas off with her kids, then yeah. You know, swap it, but make it like Oh, I've not had a Christmas off for like 4 years, Karen. Oh, okay, fine, fine. You know, like milk it so you can, you can get kind of the, the good juju back.
A — REVIEWI love that. I love that. And also, you heard it here first, Leanne thinks the parents are entitled.
C — REVIEWI said there was an element of them being entitled if they think their Christmas is more important because they've got kids. I look forward to— Am I gonna get cancelled?
Nicole Williams C.PsycholI, I know exactly what you mean there. I think, I think that, look, this is why I said I can't, I can't answer that question to say someone deserves it over someone else. I, I don't think, I don't think that's how you make the decision because it's so subjective and personal. And, and there's, and I love that idea of, of just get it out the way straight away. He doesn't care. Like, he's not bothered coming in over Christmas. Like, that is a quick, easy, that's low-hanging fruit as a manager. You can just Sort out straight away, and then you iron it out after that and put a process in place to deal with the days that aren't covered. Lovely.
A — REVIEWThank you, Nicole. This has been absolutely brilliant. Um, if you wanna learn more about Nicole, then check out the show notes. We'll link to everything Nicole's doing now. Go and find her on LinkedIn. Um, this Thursday we're joined by the awesome and slightly crazy Nikita Mikhailov. Um, he was, was brilliant interviewing him because he's just a genius. And we're gonna be talking about—
C — REVIEW50p, wasn't it? Put 50p in him, let him go.
A — REVIEWLiterally, yeah. 50p. And then I pressed record and that was it. It was Brilliant. As we're talking about the history of personality testing, very controversial, and how you can actually use it in your business and how you shouldn't be.
Nicole Williams C.PsycholYeah.
C — REVIEWSo we will be back next Tuesday with, and it'll actually just be Al and I. We're, um, we're just, yeah, I'm gonna, gonna, gonna just talk between ourselves. Don't say that, love. You can't pull it off. And then the Tuesday after that, we're joined by, uh, Mr. LinkedIn, Mr. Bill Yost. Yost? Jost. Sure, Jost. I think it's Jost, but it just—
A — REVIEWI call him Jost. I'm doing it wrong.
C — REVIEWBill will be here. If you want to join the conversation in the meantime, come over to LinkedIn, go and find Nicole, of course, and follow her, follow her research. Come and find us, say hello. Uh, we're putting loads more clips on LinkedIn now from previous episodes of Truth, Lies and Work. So, so come and have a look at those, see what you think. If you enjoy the show and want to leave us a review or a comment on Spotify. It really does mean the world. If you have some constructive feedback, we will accept that in email form.
A — REVIEWRight, so, uh, we'll spy for now.