Episode 342 · 6 October 2026 · 59:22
Latest A.I. releases, iced coffee wars and well-being bees. PLUS! Does it only takes seven seconds to make a first impression?
Latest A.I. releases, iced coffee wars and well-being bees. PLUS! Does it only takes seven seconds to make a first impression?
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Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottWould you reject someone for bringing an iced coffee to a job interview?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottThis simple question has gone viral on TikTok. Is this the next phase of the war on Gen Z, or just some light distraction and friendly discussion? I will fill you in on all the details shortly.
Al ElliottAlso this week, there's a new AI tool in town. Not news in itself, there seems to be one every single day, but This is one where you can't chat with it. It won't write any code for you. It won't send you any kind of responses, and you have to use an API to communicate with it. So why am I so excited?
Leanne ElliottBecause you're a nerd.
Al ElliottBecause I'm a massive nerd.
Leanne ElliottAnd in truth or lie, it only takes seven seconds to make a first impression. Apparently, from leadership gurus to Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, the idea that first impressions, instant decisions, and gut is part of everyday language. But is that true? I've read the research. I've got a verdict.
Al ElliottExcellent. And in the Workplace surgery. One listener asks, when does believing in the mission become manipulation? Oh, we talked about this with Danny a few episodes ago, didn't we? Like the idea of cult and culture. Yeah. In startups, how much of the mission is a genuine pursuit of greatness and how much is an excuse for working people to the bone and sleeping under their desks?
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we will help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe'll be right back after a very quick word from our sponsors. See you on the other side.
Leanne ElliottBye. Bye.
Al ElliottIf you have support tickets in your business, then this is going to sound frighteningly familiar. You open the queue on Monday morning, 200 tickets before even a first sip of coffee, and you already know what's in there: password reset requests, order updates, The same questions over and over again. Hey, what if that part of the job just handled itself?
Leanne ElliottHubSpot Customer Agent resolves those repeat tickets using your actual CRM data and knowledge base so your team can focus on the conversations that actually need them, and your customers get answers faster.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, hello, welcome back. Glad, glad you came back because I thought that was one of our strongest intros, to be honest.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. Can I ask a question now?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottHow the flip is it October?
Al ElliottI know, it felt like, it felt like June came, mid-June, we were like, oh, summer's here, this is nice. We sat and had a glass of wine by the pool, and then we woke up and suddenly it's October.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I don't know what happened to September.
Al ElliottSeptember's just, no, right up, we are, yeah. People who know us know that we had a bit of a tough September. Nothing like major, major first world problems, definitely. But it was a challenging month.
Leanne ElliottYes. Yes, it was.
Al ElliottI'm quite glad we've kicked it in the balls now and it's gone.
Leanne ElliottYeah, me too. Me too. So what are you excited about for October, Al?
Al ElliottOctober clocks. Now, do they go back? Do they go in our favour now? I can never work this out. You know what?
Leanne ElliottThey go backwards. Spring forward, fall back.
Al ElliottSo the clocks go backwards and this is where I literally have to go, right. If I'm looking at the time and it's 4 o'clock now, it'll be 3 o'clock Next week. Yeah. Right, okay. So that's good, isn't it? Because we get longer evenings, or not?
Leanne ElliottNo, we get shorter evenings.
Al ElliottTold you I don't understand this.
Leanne ElliottShorter evenings. So, so now it's like 5 past 11 worth of light.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou'd have like 10 past, 5 past 10 worth of light.
Al ElliottClear as mud.
Leanne ElliottYeah, basically dark evenings, slightly lighter mornings. Boo!
Al ElliottBoo! We have that until March, is it? Fucking winter, man. Mind you, having said that, the temperature over here in the Balkans has reduced significantly, which is much nicer. Highs are like 26, 27, as opposed to 40, which it was before, and you just couldn't go outside. So yeah, very nice.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no, it's gonna be exciting. We move this month.
Al ElliottWe move this month, yeah.
Leanne ElliottNot into our new house. That's not ready.
Al ElliottHopefully, hopefully December will say— we keep talking about these Grand Designs. We've said we should do like a Grand Designs parody, shouldn't we?
Leanne ElliottGo on.
Al ElliottWe need to harmonize on that one. There's a whole swathe of North American and Australians who are— well, maybe not Australians, but North Americans who are going, the fuck are you talking about? That's the theme tune to Grand Designs. It's been going on about 20 years with who we like to call Two Coat Kev.
Leanne ElliottThree Coat Kev.
Al ElliottThree Coat Kev.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottYeah, because if you— next time you watch it, look at any Grand Designs. He's always got at least 2 coats on and often 3.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThe guy's chilly. Anyway, what else? What have you seen, Leanne? No, this isn't the bit, is it?
Leanne ElliottI mean, I can go into that bit if you want.
Al ElliottAnything you want to—
Leanne ElliottAre we done with the chatter?
Al ElliottI don't know. What have you been working on recently? Anything exciting?
Leanne ElliottOh, yes, I have. Thank you for reminding me.
Al ElliottThat was smooth, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt was so natural, as if— Ah, so exciting news. We are launching our very own management training programme called Cornerstone.
Al ElliottYes, we are. Yes, we are. This has been top secret for about 6 months. We've been talking to our trusted So there are a fair number of people who've been on the pod who we trust.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIf you, if you've been on the pod and you don't know about it, we don't trust you, obviously. What's it about?
Leanne ElliottSo Cornerstone is for managers who were basically never taught to manage, which I believe the latest data is about 92% of managers. And really it's focusing on the skills that AI can't replace and the skills that are gonna get even more important as AI gets further embedded into our workplaces. So you might have seen that World Economic Forum report. You would've heard of it 'cause we had guests talking about it.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWhere it highlighted all the skills for people that would be most advantageous by 2030. And it's things like critical thinking and human judgement and empathy and listening and communication and all that good stuff. So we have partnered, drum roll please.
Al ElliottI'll see if I can add one in post.
Leanne ElliottWith Ride the Wave.
Al ElliottRide the Wave, that's where you did yours about a couple of years ago, didn't you?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so they are Delivering their accredited leader coach program as part of Cornerstone, which is really exciting because you'll get to develop all of these skills I just mentioned whilst also doing an accredited leader coach course. So at the end of it, you will be an accredited leader coach, which is very, very cool. And actually, if you want to then go on and be a fully fledged accredited coach, you only need to do a couple of top-up modules. That's that's a nice pathway. But then it's going to be it's going to be sandwiched. between all the great stuff of Truth, Lies and Work. So we're gonna be talking about generations in the workplace, we're gonna be talking about workplace trends, we're gonna be talking about all the stuff that will actually root these skills in proper work life.
Al ElliottYes, very, very cool. It is for—
Leanne ElliottLimited places as well. We're only running one cohort, um, to just, just because we want to keep it small. We want to give people proper time to talk things through. So we're capping the cohort at 15.
Al Elliott15 people. So we have A couple of people who've expressed interest already. If you are interested, then join— then you go to the website, joincornerstone.co.uk. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah. You could head over to my LinkedIn profile. It's on there. But yeah, joincornerstone.co.uk.
Al ElliottI believe it's .co.uk because I couldn't buy the .com. Someone else had got it.
Leanne ElliottAnd you can join the waitlist. And then once we have some solid dates, we will let you know because not to be sounding like a dick, but we want people that are proper invested in this, who truly believe that these skills are important. And truly believe in the human aspect of the workplaces. So if we get a vibe that that's not really you and you're just ticking boxes, you probably won't get offered a place.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWhich is why we've set up the waitlist.
Al ElliottYep. Okay. And just to manage your expectations, when you go to the waitlist and pop your details in, then don't be surprised if you get an email directly from Leanne. It won't be automated. It'll be going, hey, excited? Tell me, what is it you want to learn? And that's the kind of thing where you can jump on a call with Leanne, you can record a load of audio and send it over. And we really do want to hear what it is because we've got the format and we've got the curriculum, but We just want to know what everyone wants and what's most important to them because that's so we can deliver it exactly how you want it.
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottFabulous. joincornerstone.co.uk. Go right now and pop your details in. Lee, time for the news roundup, I believe.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Al, don't cue the jingle though. People don't like it.
Al ElliottI queued it last week and didn't get any reply.
Leanne ElliottOh, really?
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottI didn't notice it last week.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottIt was just very low.
Al ElliottMaybe. Anyway. Well, jingle or no jingle, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottWould you reject someone for bringing an iced coffee to a job interview?
Al ElliottSee, I haven't done job interviews for decades, so I haven't a clue. I don't think I'd reject anyone for— I think if someone's fully clothed and they've turned up on time, or ideally before, a few minutes before.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOn time is late. That's what I got taught. Then I'd be like, yeah, yeah, you can do what you want, I think. Why are people getting declined? Are people getting rejected?
Leanne ElliottWell, it's kicking off on social media right now. It started with— actually, I had to dig down because I just saw like the aftermath coming at me on like the TikTube.
Al ElliottOn your FYP.
Leanne ElliottOn my FYP. So I did a little research and it was an American recruiter that posted on TikTok about Gen Z interview etiquette. And basically it's spiralled to the point it's now being called the Iced Coffee Wars of 2026.
Al ElliottI love this. I love this.
Leanne ElliottProper viral to the point where the BBC has covered it this week.
Al ElliottOh, really?
Leanne ElliottYeah, they're actually interviewing people on the streets to get their opinion on it.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo I should say it's Caitlin Recruiter, @caitlin_recruiter, that's C-A-I-T-L-I-N_R-E-C-R-U-I-T-E on TikTok. Just need to give her the credit. She posted basically saying that she noticed Gen Z candidates arriving at job interviews carrying iced coffees and iced lattes, and her advice was basically, don't do that. Don't do that. She said it looks too casual, and it just looks like your interview's kind of a stop on everything else you're doing that day rather than kind of being the focus of your day. But people got absolutely feral in the comments over it. And like, you know, when they remix it and share it, popping off. At latest count, this video has half a million views, 23,000 likes, and nearly 6,000 comments.
Al ElliottOh, I bet Caitlin's pleased with her.
Leanne ElliottYeah, she's pinned it to her profile. Some people completely agree with her. They think it's a small thing, but interviews are formal occasions, and turning up with a takeaway coffee doesn't look professional. Others are kind of fairly questioning what on earth does an iced coffee have to do when it comes to judging somebody's ability to do the job. So one of the main news outlets that picked this up in America is CNBC, and somebody called Sophie Caldwell said that. Basically everything is wrong with hiring right now. And the point is that it's about complete imbalance. So apparently a third of unemployed workers in the US have been looking for a role for more than 6 months.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThat's significant because in the recruitment world, if someone's got a 6-month gap or bigger, you start to kind of red flag, you know, it shouldn't be, but, but it just is. So yeah, so there's this whole debate and then very quickly, It became about Gen Z.
Al ElliottOf course it did.
Leanne ElliottAnd it became about the generations. And basically, I even saw one person post that they feel that the great Gen Z-Millennial alliance is now under threat because they completely agree that you shouldn't take an iced coffee. The thing that really tickled me though, when the BBC was covering this, is that they asked some dude, and I'm pretty sure he's Gen Z or he's a very young Millennial, or he's got a great skincare routine. But he suggested that the issue was bringing an iced latte.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottThat if you brought a hot coffee, that's much more professional.
Al ElliottShut up. What? Right. Here's, here's my, here's my little tuppence worth here. What I'm thinking is, yes, you should be able to bring an iced coffee or a beverage of your choice to a, to a job interview. Yes, you should, of course. But just because you should be able to doesn't mean that you should do it. Like you've said, it's a tough job market now. You can't just stroll in and and then you've got like ten job offers and you pick. Well, some people do, but you pick which one you go for. It's a tough market out there, so you do everything. So imagine you've done everything to make your CV or your resume look as good, great as possible. It's been screened. You've got you've had a screening call. You've now going turning up for the appointment or the job interview. You've done everything you possibly can to optimize to get to this point. So do everything you possibly can to optimize to get to the next point. If that means Leaving your freaking iced coffee in, in the foyer or not buying one in the first place. Just do that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat's my thoughts. It's like, yeah, of course you should be able to, but you haven't got the power these days. 5 years ago you had the power.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNow you don't.
Leanne ElliottYeah, maybe. I think it's— I think it comes down to, doesn't it? And we've had conversations like this for a long, long time now in terms of what is professionalism, and women have experienced it in terms of what they can wear. to work. Black people have experienced in terms of their hair and how they can wear that to work. And there is a moving line of what professionalism is. When I first started work, you couldn't have any tattoos on display. That was an absolute no-no. Whereas now, nobody seems to care. So, I think it's actually these types of things that pushes the line in terms of what professionalism is. But I think it comes down to, we'll talk about this more in the truth or lie, Okay. I understand when Gen Zs are going, you shouldn't judge me, I should be able to bring my whole personality to work. Yeah, but people, humans are judgy-woody bears, you know? They shouldn't judge you, but they will.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, that's just the way it is. So I think you're right, it's kind of a— there's a, there's a bigger objective here, isn't there, in interviews, to get, to get that job. So maybe just leave your caffeine fix until later. How this has popped off though made me wonder whether we're going to see more of this, just because the general state of the world and everything we're seeing To the point where I was chatting to Dr. Jake yesterday, and he was like, people are starting to lose their shit, like in terms of like how crazy this place is, is getting. Like it's starting to actually infiltrate everyday life. So I did a little research, and there's something called the deflection of anxiety.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo in trauma-informed therapy, stirring up small conflicts acts as a psychological smokescreen. So basically, if somebody's locked into a fierce, albeit low-stake discussion, then they're kind of getting peaks in adrenaline, which temporarily distracts them from basically existential dread of the world around them.
Al ElliottWell, that makes sense, because imagine you're in a marriage or a relationship or something, and it's that your spouse or partner has done something which has really annoyed you, but you're not yet ready to talk to them. It sounds like I'm about to have a serious conversation with you on air. I'm not. Then that's the kind of thing where if they didn't unload the dishwasher, you, you'd kick off about that because that's your deferment. Is that what you're saying? Not really.
Leanne ElliottNo. Well, yes, maybe. It's more that, say, for example, your partner's having an awful time at work.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottAnd they were really anxious about it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd had an awful relationship with their manager. They might pick a fight with you over the dishwasher because they're trying to deflect away from that situation.
Al ElliottThat makes sense. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo if you're having fights about dishwasher, then just sit down and say, how's work? Is everything all right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYou should do that anyway. I think with your partner, you should just say, how is work? Are you enjoying it? Are you happy? Yeah. Yeah. We do that quite a lot. Yeah. Leanne's tapping away on a Saturday morning and I'm like, yeah.
Leanne ElliottTip tap. I was tickling.
Al ElliottWell, she's tip tappy and I'm like, are you tip tappy happy or just tip tappy, oh man, I've got to get this done before Monday? And usually it's tip tappy happy. Anyway, talking of tip taps, let's tip tap over to the world of AI. I'd love your feedback. Do you want to hear me talk more about AI? Because I nerd out about it. I mean, I read reams of stuff about AI every day.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo I'm interested whether you want to know more or whether you just want me to shut up about it. Okay. Well, this one, brand new tool. Okay. Can't, as I said before, it cannot, you can't chat with it. It doesn't write any code. It doesn't send you any kind of responses. You can't say, what's the weather like today? And it'll go, oh, today. And so it knows virtually nothing about you. It's only using an API. So it's nothing like Claude or ChatGPT. It's what they call a Systems 1 thinker. I'll explain about that in a moment. Okay. So far it doesn't sound very useful at all. No.
Leanne ElliottWell, not so much. No.
Al ElliottWell, it's, its name is Jev. My name is Jev. There are so many memes. It's J-E-V. And there are so many memes from that amazing 21 Jump Street where, where, as I call him, Tanning Chatham, Tanning Chatham starts off and he goes, my name is Leanne.
Leanne ElliottI heard, I don't know if this is a rumor or not, whether it was like a skit, but you know how they had 21 Jump Street and then 22 Jump Street because they moved across the street?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottI've heard that the third in the trilogy is going to be called like 24th Jump Street because 23 wasn't available or something. It was already rented out.
Al ElliottThere is a, there's a couple of them, a couple of great Easter eggs in, I think it's 22 Jump Street where they look across the street at 23. And they don't really say anything, but they, they start to walk towards 23 and go, oh no, here's their office. And I said, anyway, I love it. And there's lots of cameos in there and I really love it. Anyway, back to Geoff. I like quite saying that. Geoff is basically a classifier. All right. So what it does is it, you give it a piece of information and you say, is this A, B, or C? Or you can say, is it more likely to be this than this? What's the probability? Again, doesn't sound very interesting or useful, but if you think about it, our work is mainly deciding what to work on. If you think about it, you open your inbox in the morning and you're like, shite, right? What bullshit do I need to look at today? Same with Slack, right? So you open Slack. I've deleted Slack. I was talking to Phil from Nudge and I was saying, I've just deleted it. I've seen my ass. I don't want to do it anymore. Support tickets, LinkedIn notifications, YouTube comments, anything where there's a whole big pile of information that you need to wade through and decide what actually needs your attention first. Is what Jev is going to be great at. So Jev is an ultra-fast classifier bot. So for example, it can look at your entire email inbox or whatever it is, the stream data, and you can— and it can say, ask the questions, which one of these emails is important and urgent? What can I safely ignore? Who needs to see this? So then it can automatically forward it to whoever you need, whoever needs to see it. Or where does this work need to be routed to? So it could literally give you a report going, right, you've got 6 important emails you need to tackle this morning. 9 emails are from your product management software, and there's people who put tasks on, but they've not been assigned to anyone. They should be assigned to Jeff. That's a bad example. They should be assigned to Leanne, to Al, to Charlie, to whatever. Lea, so far, does that make any sense to you? Can you see a use case, or does it still sound a bit boring?
Leanne ElliottWell, why wouldn't you just get ChatGPT or Claude to do that?
Al ElliottNice question. I'm glad you asked that. Primarily because Jev is incredibly fast and incredibly cheap. So you run Jev on an inbox with, say, 1,000 emails on it, right? Or a support ticket with 1,000 emails that will come back to you genuinely between 70 and 300 milliseconds. In other words, a third of a second. It'll send it out, it'll make the decision, it'll reply back to you. So within a third of a second, and it'll probably cost you about 3 pence for 1,000 emails.
Leanne ElliottLet me give you an example, right?
Al ElliottMm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If imagine you're on a one-to-one with a, with one of your members of staff.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYou're a relatively new manager and you're, and you have enrolled for Cornerstone, of course, because you want to learn. So you're a relatively new manager and you've not done many one-to-ones because Jev is so fast and so cheap. You can transcribe your, your, your call with, with, or your conversation, and Jev can go back in real time and say, are you asking the right question? What question should you ask next? What generally does this person feel? Are they generally positive? Are they neutral? Are they negative? Does it feel like there's an underlying problem that they've not exposed yet? If so, ask this question. And you could have a screen up literally next to your call saying, this is what question you should ask next. You can have that in real time. It's really cheap and it'll help you to become a better manager. It's not a question about trying to record what the person's saying. It's trying to tell you as a manager, what would someone who's got 50 years of management experience do in this situation?
Leanne ElliottSo what is it you're particularly excited about this, about Jev?
Al ElliottI'm excited because it takes the decision out of work.
Leanne ElliottIs that a good thing?
Al ElliottI think it is because it then allows you— it's like the whole argument we've always said is if you're making 1,000 micro decisions a day that aren't— that you don't need to make, then you've only got enough capacity to make the really serious decisions. You've taken up half your day just making— deciding which email to reply to or how you reply to it. Whereas this, you could just fire it at a load of stuff and it'll go, right, the most important 3 things, most important things you need to do today is this, this, this. Go do those. I'll do the rest.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottThis, because we're not recording video anymore, it's a shame because I'd love people to see Leanne's face. Because at one point when I was talking, she actually checked her phone. I don't think this is as exciting as I think it is, but I would really genuinely like to hear from listeners About whether this is something you go, yes, cool, or, Al, what the fuck are you talking about, mate? The link in the show notes. And if you do want to nerd out about this, just go to chatwithal.com and you can book a call with me and I'll have a chat. Anyway, you ready?
Leanne ElliottI think it is cool. I think it is cool. I'm not not interested. I'm probably not sure I really fully understand.
Al ElliottI don't fully understand it.
Leanne ElliottRight. Okay. Fair enough.
Al ElliottThere's a book called Thinking Fast and Slow, which you bought me for my birthday a few years ago. You're a way ahead of me. I did.
Leanne ElliottYou weren't that impressed when I bought that for you the time. I remember you're like, oh, thanks.
Al ElliottWell, now I've got some context. Yeah, I know. I'm gonna be reading that. It's based, it's based basically on that. So I'm gonna read that this weekend, see if I can understand a bit more about this. Anyway. Oh, so what else have you seen this week, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottBees.
Al ElliottBees?
Leanne ElliottBees.
Al ElliottAs in bzzz?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottAs in Bumble.
Al ElliottTalk to me. Bumble. I like the way you say Bumble.
Leanne ElliottBumble.
Al ElliottI also like the fact that it's got bum in it as well, which makes me chuckle.
Leanne ElliottBum. Apparently bees are the new frontier of employee wellbeing.
Al ElliottDanny Wareham knew this.
Leanne ElliottYes, happy bees make tasty honey.
Al ElliottAlso, Rory Sutherland knew this because he talked about bees in his book.
Leanne ElliottWhat did Rory say about his bees?
Al ElliottI can't remember. That's how I got him on the pod, was I sent an email going, what is it with you and bees? Yeah. Anyway, anyway, sorry, go on, talk to me.
Leanne ElliottSo this came from Hannah Davenport at HR Magazine following an earlier report in The Guardian. So I saw it in HR Magazine. And basically, it's how a growing number of UK employers are offering staff beekeeping as a workplace well-being initiative.
Al ElliottReal, actual beekeeping?
Leanne ElliottReal bees, real beekeeping.
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottReal hives. Oh.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottWhat are they called? It's got a better name.
Al ElliottBeehive?
Leanne ElliottNo, like a— it's got a word.
Al ElliottI shall Google that while you're—
Leanne ElliottSo basically, apparently, some businesses are even installing hives at their office. Others are sponsoring apiaries.
Al ElliottApiary, yes. Apiary.
Leanne ElliottApiary.
Al ElliottApiary, I think is the way you say it.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, others are sponsoring hives at those and sending employees out to work with them. The idea basically is that spending time with bees forces you to slow down, focus on what you're doing, get outside and reconnect with nature. Emma Buckley, you're gonna enjoy this, is the founder of Buckley's Bees.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottHow'd she come up with that name?
Leanne ElliottI don't know. She told HR Magazine that employees are under increasing pressure to tackle workplace stress proactively and argues that some of our more traditional well-being benefits, things like gym memberships and webinars, can lack what she calls experiential depth. So beekeeping, she says, is immersive, hands-on, and most engaging, and gives people a chance to connect with nature, with each other, and a shared purpose. And apparently the employees are Loving it. So Greenfolk Recruitment have partnered with Buckley's Bees and sends its staff to visit the hives and learn about beekeeping and honey production.
Al ElliottI love this. Buckley's Bees, we put the bee in Buckley.
Leanne ElliottIts director, Chris Payne, says that his— what?
Al ElliottI just love that when you get stung, it's paid. So Chris Payne is— I saw someone the other day and he was in charge of the environment and in charge of landscaping. His name was Chris Fields.
Leanne ElliottOh, lovely. Nominative determination.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWe talked about that.
Al ElliottYeah, we did.
Leanne ElliottKind of a thing. Not, I mean, kind of.
Al ElliottKind of. Anyway, sorry, you were saying, so Payne. I believe this is, this is, yes, a sting. What, go on.
Leanne ElliottChris Payne says his team described their day at the Hive as one of the best days they've ever had.
Al ElliottI bet Chris's team is like, I fucking hate working here.
Leanne ElliottI mean, it's a—
Al Elliottgoing to get stung is one of the best days of your life, then.
Leanne ElliottHe said, and he told, Chris told HR Magazine, we all need a higher purpose than just working for money.
Al ElliottHoney over money.
Leanne ElliottHoney over money. So yeah, the article does list quite a few potential benefits that employers are hoping to get from this, including reduced stress and burnout, better morale engagement retention, stronger team bonding, environmental benefits, and potentially even a bit of employer brand sparkle for organisations trying to attract younger purpose-driven employees. There's then another comment from, from somebody called Joe Consagra, head of people at Virgin Incentives and Virgin Experience Days. They make the wider point that people aren't motivated by money alone and that workplaces are creating or trying to create belonging community and memorable experiences to be more productive and welcoming places to work. So yeah, I guess there's there's one important consideration that is also highlighted in this article is to check whether your employees actually like bees.
Al ElliottOr aren't allergic.
Leanne ElliottOr aren't allergic. Yeah, she warns against this turning into what we have covered a few times on the podcast, forced fun, which just kind of gives people the ick. Our thoughts on the bees.
Al ElliottI mean, it's an odd angle.
Leanne ElliottImagine the bees. It's very niche, isn't it?
Al ElliottLeanne and I sometimes, when we're talking about crazy stuff, we sometimes sit there and pretend we're passing around a fake joint. And so this feels a bit like someone was literally in the room going, okay, so, um, uh, what are we gonna do for our day out? Bees! What are you talking about, Simon? Here, have a toke on this. You'll get it.
Leanne ElliottHe passes it over.
Al ElliottExactly, exactly. And they're all sitting there and going, what? How did you think of bees? I'm like, well, I'm a bit buzzed, to be honest.
Leanne ElliottSo that's why I thought of bees. Very good.
Al ElliottI'll be honest. I think this is a bit weird, but I did— there is a woman on Facebook. No, Facebook. That's a word I haven't heard for a long time. There's a woman on, uh, on YouTube who I've seen, and she basically goes in and, um, moves bee nests, and she doesn't wear any protective clothing. She basically picks up the bee, the queen bee sticks in her hand very carefully, and then walks off with it, and everyone just follows her and all the bees. And it reminds me very much of, uh, of that comedian from the '90s. I'm covered in bees. I forget his name. Her name, their name. Anyway, we'll move on.
Leanne ElliottI don't know what that is.
Al ElliottOkay. So I think it's very strange and it's not for me and I don't, I don't care for it.
Leanne ElliottIf somebody said to me, our team building day, we're gonna go look at, look after some bees, I'd be like, I'm not.
Al ElliottGood luck.
Leanne ElliottYeah, go have a great time. I'm sure it'd be the best day of your life, but I will stay right here. Thank you very much. I don't, I don't, I don't want any, any harm to come to bees. I recognise how important they are and I love honey.
Al ElliottYes, you do.
Leanne ElliottBut do I want to spend time up close and personal with them? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And that's because I tend to get stung by bees. Last— was it last summer I got stung twice in like a week?
Al ElliottShe did. It was unfair.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And it really hurts.
Al ElliottYeah. If you get bees and you get stung, you're supposed to put bicarbonate of soda on it. If you get wasps, it's honey.
Leanne ElliottVinegar.
Al ElliottVinegar. Vinegar.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in terms of if you've got— if you're actually thinking, is this a good well-being trash, Leanne? Well, um, I think the thing is that we do know things like forest bathing, touching grass as the kids like to call it, being in nature, not being on a screen, not listening to anything, just being in that moment and breathing in the air is actually really good for us. It does seem to reduce our stress hormones and it does seem to kind of help us reset our nervous system a little bit. So in terms of spending time in nature, yes. In terms of spending time with your colleagues doing something that is more purpose-driven. Yes, that's why. And do you remember that big Oxford study where they all kicked off about wellbeing isn't a thing because nothing actually improves wellbeing apart from one thing, which was volunteering?
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWhich again is, it's, it's, it's a, I think it's a, it's a more maybe easily shared purpose to go and volunteer at a children's shelter or at the Samaritans or, or whatever else. So I think, yes, having a shared purpose can be really important too. Hopefully that shared purpose will also come from work. That'd be nice. So, so yes, it might, but it's never gonna prevent burnout and stress if you're working in an environment where your workloads are really high, there's lots of role conflict, there's lots of team conflict, you've got a toxic manager. None of that is— bees aren't going to help with that.
Al ElliottNo, but what you are saying is if you went to volunteer at a bee centre, then that would be a good thing because you're volunteering as a vendor and you're volunteering and apparently Well, I'm guessing they're kind of volunteering.
Leanne ElliottThey said nothing in the article about them getting paid to go and tend to these bees.
Al ElliottNo, I suppose not.
Leanne ElliottAnd I guess the other thing would be is that it would have to be really in work time. Because if you're asking people to engage in this outside of work, maybe you might get away with that with some type of volunteering. But then that could create divides because if somebody isn't bothered, you know. So really, these things should be in work time or paid, arguably.
Al ElliottYeah, agreed. So that was one of the stranger of our stories, but I enjoyed it. I very much enjoyed it.
Leanne ElliottShout out to Buckley's Bees.
Al ElliottBuckley's Bees. We put the bee in Buckley. Okay, so that's nothing to do with Buckley as in like the place in Wales, is it?
Leanne ElliottYou know, I don't know. So the town next to me where I grew up is called Buckley. We're famous for bricks.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottBack in the day.
Al ElliottThere you go. You've just doxxed yourself. We will check that during the break and we'll see you back in a second.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah. Bye.
Al ElliottBye-bye. Quick announcement for all listeners. Yeah, I've got a, I've got a new toy on my, on my little deck thing so I can make my voice change. Anyway, sorry.
Leanne ElliottI love it. Do it again.
Al ElliottHello, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottDo another one.
Al ElliottHello.
Leanne ElliottBut we didn't interrupt your podcast listening for, uh, for this. We actually interrupted it to tell you about one of our new favourite podcasts. It's called Success Story. It is hosted by Scott D. Clary, and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Success Story features question and answer sessions and conversations on sales, marketing, business startups, and entrepreneurship.
Al ElliottOh, and if you like this podcast, then I think you'll love Scott's episode in— back in December, where the infamous Seth Godin talks about empowering employees. So go listen to Success Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back, and it is Truth or Lie. But the first truth or lie we need to get to the bottom of is, is Buckley's Bees in Buckley? Is that a truth or is it a lie?
Leanne ElliottI think it's a lie.
Al ElliottOh, boo.
Leanne ElliottI think it's a lie. I mean, I can't— oh, contact us. See, there's only an email and a phone number, but the phone number is an 0333. What does that mean, Al?
Al ElliottI think that's one of those, um, like 0800 numbers. It's a low-cost number, but I haven't been in the UK since 2013, so I don't know.
Leanne ElliottI'll check on the gram.
Al ElliottI'm curious.
Leanne ElliottWhere is it? Get in touch, Buckley's Bees. Let us know.
Al ElliottYes. Okay. So in the meantime, while we're waiting for Buckley's Bees to send us a bee-mail about this, then let's talk about the truth or lies. So as you probably know by now, it's the time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up. Have you ever heard that it takes 7 seconds to make a first impression? Now, I've heard that before. I have, and I read Blink, which is Malcolm Gladwell. I must have read it 20 years ago, and it was brilliant. Since then, Malcolm Gladwell's kind of gone a little bit off the boil. I think people have said that some of his stuff isn't quite as good as it seemed at the time.
Leanne ElliottI feel like he peaked in like the late '10s, like 2017.
Al ElliottI think maybe even earlier than that. But yeah, he did. And I thought they were really entertaining books.
Leanne ElliottGood reads.
Al ElliottGood reads. But have you ever stopped to ask? Because he didn't say 7 seconds, he said milliseconds. But most people hear the phrase, In the first 7 seconds, you make a first impression. Leanne, do you know where that came from?
Leanne ElliottI didn't. So I did a little research, and basically nobody seems to know. This is actually one of my points in my, my against argument, but I'll tell you now. So apparently one kind of popular version says that you make 11 judgments in 7 seconds, and that includes things like education, income, how trustworthy you might seem. And it was credited to a New York University marketing professor. Called Michael Solomon. Now, apparently a blogger asked him for the study and asked him for more information on this, and he replied saying it's an urban myth. There's no such study to support that claim.
Al ElliottTypical marketer going, this is, this is fact, this is what— and then they go, where's your evidence? They go, um, I'm needed in the basement.
Leanne ElliottUrban myth. Dunno what you're talking about. Wasn't me.
Al ElliottAnyway, so is this a truth or is this a lie, Leanne? Talk us through the both sides.
Leanne ElliottWell, in terms of the 7-second claim, we're looking at answering 2 different questions. The first is speed. Right? So how quickly do we form a judgment about somebody? And the second is accuracy, because there's not much use in judging somebody if it's completely wrong.
Al ElliottTrue.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So when psychologists look at this, they, they tend to look more at the speed thing and then sometimes look at the accuracy thing. So if we take speed first, if anything, the research suggests, um, like Michael Malcolm, I keep wanting to call him Michael today, like Malcolm Gladwell in Blink, that the 7-second claim is too generous.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo in 2006, researchers at Princeton showed 117 students photographs of strangers' faces, and each photo appeared for a tenth of a second. And when students were then asked if they were trustworthy, competent, or aggressive, the researchers compared those snap ratings With the ratings of 120 other students who had no time limit. They could look at the picture as much, as long as they wanted to. So when compared, the 2 sets of judgments lined up pretty closely.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo the faces that the snap group rated as trustworthy were by and large the same faces that the unhurried group rated trustworthy. So this kind of, it did depend on some traits. So competence and aggressiveness were weaker. There wasn't as much agreement, but it was still notable. It was still much higher than than chance. So the researchers concluded that generally speaking, giving people 10 times longer didn't significantly improve the judgments. It just made people more confident in the judgment that they made. Then some other researchers at Harvard Medical School went shorter still. So they showed 60 adults neutral faces for just 39 milliseconds. That's about a 14th of a second, which is about the same Length of time as a blink. Do you see what Malcolm did?
Al ElliottOh, so it isn't just thrown together by Gladwell, is it?
Leanne ElliottNo, no, no. He thinks that shit through. So they were asked how threatening each person looks. Even at that speed, the crowd's view closely matched the view of people who studied the faces for longer. So almost 2 seconds. So very much Yeah, similar agreement in terms of who looked threatening. It's probably pegged to some evolutionary response there, isn't it?
Al ElliottWhat I'm loving is this is exactly demonstrating JEV, what I was talking about before, this classification.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you mean?
Al ElliottWell, only that that's what JEV does in like 0.07 of a second. It'll make a judgment on some information you give it. I'm really pushing this, JEV, aren't I?
Leanne ElliottYeah, humans can too.
Al ElliottHumans can too. Yes, we don't need you, JEV.
Leanne ElliottSo then we can go to a 2015 review. Um, they basically looked at, at kind of the results in general and said that yes, this has been repeated many times with impressions forming as little as 34 milliseconds.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThen we have 2 2026 reviews, uh, one called Neuron. They explain why this is happening. So first impressions from appearance mainly involve the amygdala. That's a part of our brain that helps detect threat. And its activity rises as a face looks more untrustworthy, even when nobody has asked for a judgement. So that's what we were saying before about your iced coffees. You might not have asked to be judged, but people are judging you anyway.
Al ElliottOoh, nice link back.
Leanne ElliottThank you. So yeah, and then there was another review as well that also tries to look at the why, and they basically describe the judgements as implicit, meaning they happen without deliberate reasoning. They're very instant. So the next question is, if we're good at making judgements quickly, that's cool, but it only really matters if the judgements are right. So then we go to a very famous study by Dana Carney and her colleagues at Northeastern University. They had 334 students watch clips of 30 other students in 5-minute getting acquainted chats. This time, the clips showed real behaviour. So it's how people talked, how they reacted, how they came across. And the researchers checked what viewers said against independent evidence. So what the students said about themselves, what their friends said about them, what their parents said about them. And they also asked them to do an intelligence test.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottAfter only 5 seconds of footage, which is closer to the 7-second claim, viewers were picking up genuine differences between people on 6 of the 8 traits measured. So that was including things like extroversion, conscientiousness, and intelligence. They were best at spotting who was anxious or upset. So the judgements weren't quite as fast, but they were very accurately done.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd there's one more reason that these kind of early moments matter. So in a 2025 paper, the researchers described a very famous case. So a Swiss neurologist shook hands with a patient who had severe amnesia. And they were holding it like a tack. You know, it's got like a little teeny tiny needle in it that pricks the hand.
Al ElliottOh, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So it's going to hurt.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe next day, the patient had no memory of the doctor.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottBut still hesitated before shaking his hand.
Al ElliottOh, that's good.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So the emotional reaction has survived without any memory of it. So this paper was by a psychologist called David Amodio. He went on to point out that facts about a person can be easy to revise. But an emotional reaction to them or to a memory of a particular moment can be much harder to shift.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottSo what's the evidence against?
Leanne ElliottEvidence against, I think the first thing, as I mentioned, kind of when we first started talking about this, nobody really knows where it came from. Nobody can actually pin down the person that said it only takes 7 seconds to make a first impression.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt just seems to be one of those things that, that is kind of, somebody's maybe said, and now it's out in the, you know how, um, Nikita was saying that just something jumps out of a lab and then it grows teeth and it's suddenly its own ecosystem.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo we don't really know where it, where it comes from. So when we look at the actual research, remember I mentioned that famous study by Dana Carney and colleagues who started to look at if the judgments were very accurate?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWell, they found in terms of the time that it took for these judgments to form, after 5 seconds, viewers had only a rough sense of people and only for some of the traits. So things like anxiety or upset, they might be able to to pick out, but they couldn't tell who was cheerful or who was agreeable. By 20 seconds, they could start to see this if people were happy. It took around a minute before they had a real grasp on who was agreeable and some of the other traits they looked at as well, things like conscientiousness, that people were organised, that people were dependable. That took about a minute. As I said, the exceptions being anxiety and intelligence, people tended to see those within about 5 seconds.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut what's interesting is that they see it, people would see it as accurate at 5 seconds as they would at 5 minutes.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo giving people that extra time didn't make any difference. So they kind of said that the sweet spot is 60 seconds to form a fairly accurate judgment of a person in a short period of time. So 7 seconds might get you a rough read on a few things, probably linked to evolution and our kind of our threat response. Beyond that, we need a little bit longer. Then the 2015 review by Todorov and colleagues, they showed that accuracy can be overstated. So, they did a little experiment where people guessed which of 2 candidates was a Republican from photographs alone, and people got it right about 56% of the time.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut Republican candidates typically tended to be older, white, Male. And when the research compared only candidates alike in gender, ethnicity, and age, the score fell to 50.7%, which is basically chance.
Al ElliottCoin flip.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd at work, there is kind of a real cost to this as well. There is some research that shows that chief executives who looked competent were paid more, but turned out to be no better at the job. It was more that the companies had simply been more profitable before they arrived. Then there's a fact that impressions can change. So a first impression is a starting guess, and then new behaviour keeps testing it. So the Neuron review that I mentioned, they found that when someone acts against our expectations, the brain regions we use to work out what other people intend become more active, and the impression updates. And then going back to our friend David Amodeo, Gave an example that basically if a professor is strict in class but turns out to be supportive in the lab, that strictness is then interpreted as encouragement, tough love.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottSo facts like this are easy to revise, but as he mentioned, emotional reactions can be harder to shift.
Al ElliottExcellent. My head's spinning a little bit because I can see really good reasons for and really good reasons against. So I can see why it's the truth and why it's a lie.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottPut me out of my misery.
Leanne ElliottThat's the conclusion I came to as well.
Al ElliottYeah?
Leanne ElliottYeah. It's not true, but it's not a lie.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's kind of like not—
Al ElliottIt's not a lie. No.
Leanne ElliottIt's kind of not the point, or it's— or is— was it Danny that said it's a bit more complicated than that?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, so it's a lie that 7 seconds is a set window.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's a lie that the first impression is accurate all the time. And it's a lie that that impression is final.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottBut it is true that we judge people almost instantly. It is true that some traits and emotions can be read in a few seconds. And it is true, of course, that those judgements have consequences.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo I guess the takeaway really for everyone is more awareness. If you're the one being judged, Gen Z with the coffee cup, be mindful of how that comes across. Impressions can form very, very quickly. Yes, they will be changed in terms of what you do next, but it's going to take the grace of the person, isn't it, kind of judging you in that situation. Speaking of which, if you are the one judging, maybe just be a bit aware that, that first impressions are formed fast, but they, they're not always accurate. So maybe give people, maybe give that Gen Z with a coffee, coffee cup a little time to settle in.
Al ElliottLovely. Thank you so much. I'm guessing like a proper scientist, all the links will be in the show notes. And if you've got your own truth or lie, then let us know. Leanne can cover it, or if you fancy doing it yourself, we've had a few people coming in and doing a truth or lie. We had Nicole a couple of weeks ago.
Leanne ElliottThat was a good one.
Al ElliottYep, we had Bill a couple of weeks ago.
Leanne ElliottNo, that was me.
Al ElliottOh, that was you. Oh yeah, sorry, sorry. I should know that because I was there when you recorded it. I also edited it, so I should know that. Anyway, so it's time for my favorite time of the week. It's time for the world-famous weekly webisode you can regularly watch with Leanne. This— we've got 3 questions, as would be my wont. And, uh, you ready for question number 1, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo this one's about how do I replace a manager that everybody knows? So this says, I'm about to step into a GM role. Is that general manager?
Leanne ElliottIt is, yeah.
Al ElliottOkay. And at the same time, the company is letting go of a manager who's been there for decades. I'll be absorbing a big role of his role— sorry, a big part of his role immediately. So the team is going to lose a familiar leader and get me at the same time. My instinct is to hold an All hands straight away to explain the change, to set expectations and tell people where we're heading. But I don't want it to sound like a corporate speech. And also, people are still gonna be processing what's happened. So, Lee, what should my priorities be in the first few weeks? Also, I'd be interested to know is how does this person then establish kind of like that they're, they're now the boss without erasing this, that they're obviously someone who's very well liked?
Leanne ElliottMy first thought is do not hold an all-hands straight away and explain the change and set expectations and tell people where they're heading, right? Because you're going to get immediate resistance in terms of who do you think you are.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottYou could absolutely do a meeting, um, that has everyone there with a view of, I'm gonna spend the next 30 days, maybe even longer, just getting to know you and just getting to know the team and how things work. work, what you like, what you don't like, what maybe you'd like to change, what the company's wanting to change, and how we can work together to achieve that. My first month is just about getting to know you, all the incredible work that you do, and all the incredible work you've done under this wonderful leader who is now leaving. Don't we wish him well? Happy retirement, my friend.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottYou kind of wanna, you know how in Samaritans we used to, it's empathy, right? It's empathy in action. So you know how in Samaritans it used to be that like sympathy is You're looking down at somebody in a hole and going, I'm so sorry, it looks really dark down there. Whereas empathy is when you get in the hole and you go, wow, it's really dark down here, isn't it? And you want to get in the hole.
Al ElliottYeah, just be careful if you put that on email, that HR doesn't pull you in and say, I want, I want to get in Sandra's hole.
Leanne ElliottJust be careful. Yes, be careful with that. But you know what I'm saying, right?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think the key thing really is spending one-to-one time with people. You haven't said how many people you're managing, but as a GM role, it could be that you've got managers, under your supervisors, it could be then you've got potentially hundreds of people. You haven't said, so I would say have, ideally, if it's a smaller team, have one-to-ones with everybody. And I mean everybody, whether it be kind of a manager or somebody who works in an entry-level role. And just get curious, ask some questions like, what's making your heart— your job harder at the minute? What would make it easier? What do you love about your job? What do you wish you could do more of? What opportunities do you see? For the team. It's like a mini SWOT analysis, I guess, for each employee, but it has to come from a place of, this is just a conversation, this isn't any formal, nothing, you know, the only consequence of this is me understanding how things are currently happening and how I can be my most effective as we kind of move through this transition phase. They're going to give you the answers. They're going to tell you exactly what it is that they think they should change. You might find out that this very well-respected leader has been holding them back for for years, and they've been wanting lots of change and innovation, but the leader wasn't on board. It could be that they're all really happy, and you're going to have to work hard to convince them of any changes that you're going to make. But it's kind of like, if you don't really know what you're walking into, the last thing you should do is just come in with this blind authority about how you're going to change everything, because that's going to trigger— it's such simple Simple psychology. It's literally going to put people in like fight, flight, freeze threat state mode. So, don't do that. Start with conversations. And then after those first few weeks, you're going to be able to start to put a plan together and go for some quick wins. That's always a really nice tactic as well. So, there's just something that's really annoying people in the process, just fix it, just change it if that's in your power to do so. You're going to start to then build trust with people, and that trust is going to be essential if you're going to be then in a position where you need to make much bigger changes. I would recommend going back and listening to Vince Sanderson's episode, which talks about the first 90 days of management. He says exactly this, the first 30 days is just about understanding what the kind of state of play is.
Al ElliottYeah, so that's episode 177, if I recall. Go back to that. That seems like a long time ago. But yeah, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant episode. We've got a few, we've got Dave Klein on there, we've got loads. And also, we've also got Um, how to have great meetings begins with M.
Leanne ElliottMAMI.
Al ElliottMAMI.
Leanne ElliottBrilliant.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, lovely. Thank you, Leanne. Question number 2 is about believing in the mission and whether it becomes manipulation. So this person says, I've worked in startups where founders constantly talk about the mission and talk about changing the world and being part of, part of something bigger than yourself, which does sound great, but sometimes it feels like believing in the mission becomes an excuse for expecting people to work ridiculous hours and sacrifice their personal lives and maybe even give a lot more work than they're actually getting paid for. Where's the line between genuinely inspiring people with a purpose and then using that purpose to guilt them into overworking? This is interesting, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we did talk about this with Danny, didn't we? Cult and culture. And we also talked about it with Bill Yost when we did our truth or lie on does purpose make you work harder? And believing in a mission can be used as manipulation. In some businesses. I've seen it happen, whether it be intentionally or not. So that is something to be mindful of. As an entrepreneur, you're always going to have this, this mission that is so close to your heart because you literally started a business to try and achieve it. And with that comes so much sacrifice and hard work and dedication and time away from your kids and, and huge amounts of stress. So it is always going to be more important to you than the majority of your employees. That's not to say they can't support you in that mission, in that purpose. The key thing isn't purpose, it's meaningful work, because meaningful work is purpose in action. So I—
Al ElliottSay that again.
Leanne ElliottMeaningful work is purpose in action.
Al ElliottOh, that's a nice phrase.
Leanne ElliottSo for example, say we both worked in Samaritan's head office, because that's a charity that we believe in. It's kind of where we first got into Kind of our work around kind of mental health. We work for Samaritans, and I believe in, in the mission and purpose of Samaritans. If they put me in a, in a cold outreach sales role, I'm gonna really struggle with that. I understand that the work is meaningful, but it's not using my skill set. It's not giving me a personal sense of fulfillment because it fills me with existential dread to have to have those types of conversations. And I know it does because I did it for a year and it was the worst year of my life.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, having that mismatch in terms of my skills and the job that I'm doing, that dissonance is gonna cause me lots of stress to the point where I'll more than likely start to disengage in the work because it's not meaningful, and over time could well disengage with the mission. If you put me in a role where I'm training volunteers, training listeners, then I'm gonna thrive in that role because it's right up my street in terms of my skillset as a psychologist. I've been there, I've done it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo I can serve in that mentor role as well, that coaching role. Something like that is gonna fill me up so much to the point where it borders on dangerous. And this is the other catch in it because, and then we were talking to Bill about this, weren't we, that you're gonna find yourself working longer hours. You're gonna find yourself working on a certain project on a Saturday just because you're really excited about it and you just really want to get it done. So that's when I've heard people refer to it as the dark side of purpose, and we see it a lot in healthcare professionals, people that work in child services, people who work in trauma-related roles, where you're so invested in the purpose of the organisation and so invested in the meaningful work you're doing, you push yourself to burnout. And actually, research shows that there is a high correlation between burnout and meaningful work that has a very high workload and poor boundaries.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, all that to say, yeah, there are organisations that could well be using, intentionally or not, purpose and meaningful work as some form of manipulation to get people to work longer and harder. So, the only question really is, do you believe in the mission? Is the work meaningful? And how much of yourself do you want to give? And if possible, being aware of that is going to save you because ultimately you will Burnout, and that's going to take you away from the meaningful work. It's going to take you away from the mission, which is why having really firm boundaries in place, having some resemblance of work-life balance, making sure that you're not under any kind of financial stress because of what you're doing, makes all this a lot more sustainable. So I think my question would be, if you're working for an organisation where the entrepreneur is really pushing, believing in the mission, is, is looking at what else they're doing to make this, the delivery of this mission sustainable?
Al ElliottI love that. I love that. Great answer. Okay. Question number 3. This is about an engagement survey that says one team is miserable. I'm wondering what the problem is. So this person says, hi, Al and Leanne. I oversee several teams and our latest engagement survey has come back. 4 teams are doing reasonably well. One team's score is significantly worse across almost everything. My immediate instinct is to look at the manager, manager, because that's the obvious difference and something Leanne says all the time, but I don't want to blame someone.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBased on a survey. Where should I start looking?
Leanne ElliottYou're right that you don't want to blame somebody based on a survey. I don't know the answer to that. How could I possibly know the answer to that? You're going to have to talk to them. And this is where I can sometimes get a little bit concerned about organisations running their own engagement survey without having consultation from an occupational psychologist like me, or somebody in HR, or somebody like Bill in data, human analytics, people analytics. Because you're kind of left just doing, oh, I've heard I need to run a survey, so I will run a survey, then go, oh, what do I do now? When I run surveys with organisations, I will always follow up with focus groups, looking at if this was a team that comes out lower than the average, I'd be getting that team together in probably threes or fours and kind of going, oh, so one of the key data points in the survey was that people think working hours are too long. What do we think about that? Can you tell me what that looks like in day-to-day, what impact that's having on you? I've run some focus groups where they've gone, oh no, I don't think working hours are too long. And then I've done the second one, and then those 3 or 4 employees do think that their hours are too long because they're in a different job or they're client-facing or they're entry-level and they still haven't quite got into kind of the repetitiveness of work, I think.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo that there can be very different nuances even between the team with that lower engagement score. So you're gonna have to ask them and you're gonna have to scrutinise the data with them to really understand what it is going on. It could be the manager, it might not be the manager. And if it is, you approach that not from a point of blame, because that's not very nice, from a point of what development can I give my manager to support the team?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWith their performance and their engagement. You also said as well that the other 4 teams are doing reasonably well. You don't sound like you're super excited about these engagement results, so it sounds like there might be actually stuff across the board. And looking at this team that is maybe feeling the pressure sooner, either based on what they're doing or the order in which they're in the process, they might just be showing some of the cracks earlier than the rest of the team are also experiencing that pressure. So actually, this could be a really good opportunity to not only look at that team and how to better support them, but how to improve the experience and engagement performance of the entire group.
Al ElliottLove it. What a great, great answer. There's, there's gonna be loads and loads of stuff on our, in our archives around about engagement surveys, around about what to, what to do with results. But if you do have a specific question about that, then please get in touch, because I think we've covered engagement surveys an awful lot. But we've covered it from the point of view of, of doing them, as in like performing them, rather than actually looking at the results. I don't think we've done much on looking at the results. So I'd like to know what your questions were for that. Lee, thank you so much. Next Thursday, we are joined by the Right Honourable— we don't often say that— the Right Honourable Steve Baker and Professor or Dr. Paul Dolan. If he's neither of those things—
Leanne ElliottFrom LSE, right?
Al ElliottYeah, from LSE. If he's neither of those things, then we'll We've just given him some, some pre-nominies. They're from the Provocation people, and they're going to talk to us about how to disagree at work. Just for background, Steve Baker was one of the people who pushed through Brexit, and Paul Dolan did not agree with him, yet they're now working together. And we had— we talked about that. We did touch on that because we did— we're not Brexit people either.
Leanne ElliottI know.
Al ElliottBut it was a— it's a really interesting interview. We both did it and we both learned a lot. And to be fair, like, both of them They are really good at looking at other people's opinions.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And we did, we did ask some tough questions as well, particularly about, about Steve's life in politics and how that, that world even operates. We definitely pushed Paul on, on the science side of things and the psychology side of things, the behavioural science side of things. It was generally a really, really interesting conversation that flew by. So I'm excited for this. I would definitely say join in. It's a different vibe.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTo, I think, some of the guest episodes we've had recently. Like, it's very, it's very practical, but it's also very like, it's kind of serious, like serious stuff we're talking about.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. Not, not bees.
Leanne ElliottNo, not bees.
Al ElliottAnyway, right. So we'll see you next week.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottLove you. Bye.
Al ElliottLove you. Bye.