Episode 337 · 17 September 2026 · 1:02:52
How to Hire with A.I. (Without Getting It Wrong) LIVE! With Kate Young and Ben Hawkes
Featuring Kate Young
How to Hire with A.I. (Without Getting It Wrong) LIVE! With Kate Young and Ben Hawkes
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Why small business owners make bad hires and the role of AI
panel interview#hiring#small-business#ai#recruitment
Spotting AI-polished CVs and what to screen for instead
panel interview#ai#cv-screening#recruitment#resume
Using AI for job analysis, job descriptions, and interview questions
panel interview#ai#job-analysis#job-descriptions#interview-questions
Why AI should never make the final hiring decision
panel interview#ai#hiring-decisions#ethics#human-judgment
The risks of shadow AI and the need for an AI hiring policy
panel interview#shadow-ai#ai-policy#compliance#hiring
Are CVs defunct? The future of CVs and video interviews
panel interview#cv#future-of-cvs#video-interviews#recruitment
Practical AI strategies: five things to do tomorrow
panel interview#ai-strategy#practical-tips#small-business#hiring
Choosing an unbiased AI tool: what to look for and red flags
panel interview#ai-tools#bias#red-flags#vendor-selection
Cutting wasted spend on endless interviews with AI
panel interview#ai#cost-saving#interview-process#efficiency
Final takeaway: define the job and be human
panel interview#job-definition#human-touch#takeaways#hiring
Show notes
How to Hire with A.I. (Without Getting It Wrong) — LIVE! with Kate Young and Ben Hawkes
Guests: Kate Young and Ben Hawkes — co-founders of The Hiring Science Studio, assessment science experts with decades of experience designing hiring processes for FTSE 100 companies, UK government departments, and global talent assessment.
A bad hire costs a small business close to £14,000. Yet when recruitment goes wrong, business owners rarely blame technology. Instead, they blame rushed decisions, poor judgement, and a sudden flood of generic, AI-generated applications.
So, does A.I. actually improve recruitment, or does it just make the same hiring mistakes faster?
In this LIVE episode, Al and Leanne sit down with Kate Young and Ben Hawkes to break down how small businesses can safely navigate AI in hiring, spot hidden algorithmic bias, and protect their bottom line. From the real cost of bad hires to the AI application flood, they share practical strategies for using AI sensibly — plus their 5 To-Dos and 3 To-Never-Dos for small business recruitment.
Top 3 Takeaways
Don't let AI make the decision. AI is brilliant at drafting, summarising, and challenging your thinking — but it should never be the one choosing between candidates. That's a human judgement call, and outsourcing it is where the risk lives.
Put your AI policy up front. Tell candidates how they can (and can't) use AI in your process before they apply. It won't stop everyone, but it sets clear expectations and gives you a defensible position if things go wrong.
Audit your tools before you trust them. You don't need an expensive compliance team. Ask vendors what their AI is trained on, whether it's been bias-tested, and look for boring, detailed technical manuals — they're a sign of real rigour.
🔥 What We Cover
The Real Cost of Bad Hires Why small business owners rush interviews and end up paying the ultimate financial price — and why the blame rarely lands on the technology.
The AI Application Flood How candidates use ChatGPT to polish CVs, why the "good-looking CV" is now a red flag, and what business owners should actually screen for instead.
Where AI Earns Its Place Sensible, low-risk uses of AI that save time without sacrificing human quality — including using it to challenge your own hiring assumptions.
5 To-Dos & 3 To-Never-Dos The ultimate rules for using AI in small business recruitment, from "ask it to be adversarial" to "never upload personally identifying information."
Auditing Your Process How to perform a quick, realistic check on your existing hiring tools — including the "boring manual" test for spotting genuinely robust vendors.
💬 Live Audience Question
"Are CVs defunct?" Ben and Kate weigh in on whether the AI-generated application flood has killed the CV — and why they think it might actually be heading for a renaissance.
More From Kate Young & Ben Hawkes
The Hiring Science Studio
Kate Young
Ben Hawkes
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benhawkes/
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. What you're about to hear is from one of our recent LinkedIn Lives, a live panel discussion where we dig into the big questions shaping modern work. If you'd like to join us for the next one, just search for Leanne Elliott—
Kate Youngthat's me—
Leanne Elliotton LinkedIn and hit follow. We announce them there first, and we obviously launch them there first. Right, let's go into it after a quick message from our lovely sponsor.
Al ElliottDoes your experience with AI sound a little like this? You prompt for 20 minutes, the output is polished, is confident, and is completely flipping useless. Well, that's what happens when AI doesn't know anything about your business.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. But you know what does know something about your business?
Al ElliottHubSpot.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's AI. It works with your actual customer data, every interaction, every signal your team has generated over time. So instead of prompting and hoping, You ask once and ship it.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. So, a little bit of preamble, then we'll go into our— hey, well, Leigh, I think we might be live.
Leanne ElliottAmazing. We will give it a minute or so for anybody who is able to watch live to join us.
Al ElliottIf you're not watching this live, comment below, say hello, and then we will not comment in real time because that'll be the future. We can't do that now, but we'll definitely comment. And also make sure if you've got any questions that you want to put in the comments, put them in. I will do my best to try and find those questions, but I'm using Restream. I never know where they are.
Leanne ElliottI've got my phone in front of me. It's not quite sexy technology, but it's effective. So I think it's fine. We usually ask where people are dialling in from. Kate, where are you in the world today?
Kate YoungOh, I am in the deeply exciting Guildford in Surrey, Leanne. I can think of no interesting facts about it whatsoever, but it's very pleasant. We have hills and we have fast line to London, so all good.
Leanne ElliottWhat more do you need?
Al ElliottWhere was the UK office based? Was that Guildford?
Kate YoungWhich UK office? Oh, the— no, that was Slough. Oh, harsh. No, no, no. Slough. Wow.
Leanne ElliottYou've offended so many people in one comment.
Kate YoungNo one wrote a poem about bombing Guildford either.
Al ElliottWell, I tell you what, we'll move on and I'll see if I can offend Ben as well. Ben, where are you calling in from?
Ben HawkesI'm in sunny downtown Shrewsbury.
Leanne ElliottOh, beautiful. Love Shrewsbury. We have some good friends who got married there. Beautiful place.
Ben HawkesYeah, I got here about 30 years ago and never saw a reason to leave, so I'm still here.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottBrilliant. Well, I can confirm we are live. I can see us on the telly, which is always good news. So welcome everybody to Truth, Lies and Work LIVE! We are the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, and we are of course brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name's Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures. So today's episode starts with a bit of an uncomfortable number. The average bad hire costs a small business close to £14,000, and when small business owners are asked why it went wrong, Most don't blame the tools. They blame rushed decisions or poor quality applications. So the question isn't really, should you use AI to hire? It's whether AI actually fixes that problem or just makes the same mistakes, probably a little bit faster.
Al ElliottYeah, our first guest is Kate Young, co-founder of the Hiring Science Studio. Kate's been in assessment science since 2004 and has built hiring processes for FT, FTSE, that's what I'm gonna say. FTSE 100 companies and government departments. High top secret work she cannot talk about, she'll have to kill you. And she's seen this from both the vendor side and the independent side. So, Kate, welcome, welcome.
Kate YoungThank you very much for having me here today.
Leanne ElliottAnd joining Kate is Ben Hawkes, also co-founder of the Hiring Science Studio. Ben spent 25 years leading hiring and assessment transformation at very complex global organizations, and he's a founder of TapNet, a network of over 80 senior Fortune 500 AI leaders. Ben, great to have you with us.
Ben HawkesThank you very much. Good to see you.
Leanne ElliottI feel like we should just get right into it, Al, because I know you've been really looking forward to this one as well, haven't you, my little AI lover?
Al ElliottFor context, I am the biggest— I'm the biggest nerd anyway, and I installed Hermes for the first time about 8 weeks ago on a VPN, a VPN, VPS, and then I moved it to my Mac Mini. And honestly, it's been my best friend ever since. So I am a huge fan of AI, which is also kind of weird because obviously being with Leanne, who's obviously into people, And the whole podcast, People and Culture, there's sometimes a little bit of friction there. So it is interesting, but hopefully you two are going to be able to help us solve that friction.
Leanne ElliottYes, I should point out as well that Kate and I, I think if you, if you listen to Kate, has been on the show before, listen to her episode, you will know that we bonded over job analysis. So fair warning, the geek level on this episode is probably going to be very, very high between my love of things like job analysis and our collective Um, appreciation of what AI can maybe help small businesses with. So strap in.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottLet's get started. Um, Kate, I want to start with you. When small business owners are asked why bad hires went wrong, why it didn't work out, they don't seem to necessarily blame the tools or, or the method. They seem to blame poor quality applications or rushed decisions or just the pressure. Um, have you seen that? Does, does that surprise you in any way?
Kate YoungIt doesn't surprise me. I think small business owners are obviously under a lot of pressure to do lots of different jobs, and hiring is one of them. I probably said this on the last podcast because it's one of my favorite kind of soundbites, but I am firmly of the view that hiring for most people is a bit like driving in that we all believe we're above average drivers, and hiring is the same. Most of us believe we're above average hires. And so, I think it's easy when you're running a small business and you're under pressure, perhaps not to kind of question what you're doing, question your process, really think it through critically, and operate a little bit more on gut instinct, because we do tend to trust ourselves. We do tend to believe we make good decisions about people. And so, perhaps that kind of critical thinking about why it went wrong and what could have been put in process at the start isn't necessarily happening, through no fault of small businesses' own. I mean, I run a small business and I'm very good at questioning things like tax and accounting, because I know nothing about them, and I'll sit there and critique it and think it through. But other stuff, I just trust myself. I think hiring's probably like that for a lot of small businesses.
Leanne ElliottAnd you've said, when we were having that conversation, that AI isn't necessarily a problem for small businesses to use in a hiring process, but the bad hiring practice might be. What type of evidence have you seen of that?
Kate YoungI mean, everything is kind of, at this stage, anecdotal, because I don't think there's a lot of people kind of going out to market and really querying how much small businesses are using for hiring. There's a lot of kind of bigger studies that look at something called shadow AI, and that describes a phenomenon, rather, when somebody's using an AI tool in any size business, but it's very likely to be happening in small businesses, because they haven't got kind of the mandate resources. an AI tool to do something, and that AI tool, either the tool hasn't been signed off by the business, or the process they're using it for hasn't been signed off by the business. And again, small businesses are resource constrained. So, let's say you're a small business of sort of 50, 60 people, you are the head of HR, and you've also got another kind of couple of jobs alongside of that. It's going to be understandably incredibly tempting to start dropping CVs into ChatGPT or whatever and going, Find me the ones with the best change management skills, or whatever. It's compelling, we're time poor, and we all want to get better at our jobs, and do the best, you know, so we use the tools available to us. Unfortunately, the minute you do that, you've started to run into kind of a whole world of potential pain that kind of starts with data privacy, and ends with potential bad decision-making over here.
Leanne ElliottAnd Ben, from your perspective, in terms of the implementation, as Kate was saying, you know, we didn't have time is often a reason. people might use things like ChatGPT. Is that kind of the root cause of what goes wrong, kind of that time pressure, or is it a symptom of something else?
Ben HawkesI think that's a lot to do with it. And you can't blame small business owners when they are currently probably inundated with CVs because people can now apply for many jobs at scale thanks to AI. So, business owners are then having to sift through instead of 10 or 20 CVs, possibly 100. So, The temptation is obviously there to put those into AI and say, help choose the best candidates. And we can't really blame them for that. Once you understand how AI works with a load of CVs, you might have second thoughts about that. But it's not just that. It's also the longstanding stuff about often we've been hiring on gut feel. A lot of people do that, or we use interview techniques, interview questions that That aren't as effective as they could be. And regardless of whether AI is in the picture or not, the reason we make bad hires is because, yes, time pressure, but also not knowing how to make good hires in the right way. And that can involve a mixture of interviews of the right type. It could involve some assessments, could be some work sample tests, a whole range of tools that are available. to help make sure you get the right hire and to do that in a timely manner, because that is a huge pressure.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's what I think we'd really like to kind of walk business owners and leaders through today. It's kind of that process and where AI can help and maybe where it can make problems a bit worse or speed them up. So, let's start at the beginning with applications, because there's a lot of applications landing in people's inboxes right now. We were talking to somebody who works in big tech yesterday. They had a job live for 3 days and it got over 6,000 applications. So, and he was saying as well that the candidates you can see are using AI to write the CVs, to prep the answers. He's not even convinced that every time, every application is a real person. How do business owners tell that apart anymore from something that's been generated by AI that might be a bot or is a genuine candidate?
Kate YoungGo on, Ben.
Ben HawkesOh, this is one we're doing a lot of work on. I wish I could say there's an easy answer that you could say this CV is definitely AI, definitely not. We're in a bit of an arms race with candidates. I don't blame candidates for using AI to improve their application or improve their CV because the tools are there, the tools are available, and they do a good job of polishing that CV. It puts then employers in a difficult position because now we've got all these great-looking CVs saying the right words that are reflecting the wording of the job description. So how do you differentiate between them? And I think a key thing is to not mistake fluency for capability. So unless the AI is adding fictitious stuff to the CV, it's polishing it, it's making it more fluent, and that can be very attractive. But instead, we need to make sure when we're reviewing CVs that we are looking for those things that we've always looked for, the right experience, the right job history track record, the right education qualifications. Those are very important. And when we're reviewing CVs, we shouldn't be swayed by, this one looks great, or it really matches the job description. They've literally got every keyword in there. Well, there's a reason why they've got every keyword in there. It's because ChatGPT or or Claude has put that in. So, a lot of it is going back to the basics of looking for what evidence do we need that this person can do the job, and it will be their job history. But as I say, there's no easy way of doing it. And you can drop CVs into AI text detection engines, and you might have some success, but as those detection engines get better, And then that gets built into the AI that is then generating and refining CVs. And we've been working on that ourselves, that the better the AI gets at detecting, well, we just take those rules and use them to make CVs or fake candidates to see how well those detection methods work. And they don't. So, I would suggest not overly relying on AI detection, but accept that there's a lot of candidates, perhaps even the majority, who are using it, but always go back to the basics of what is it that we're actually looking for? What skills, knowledge, behaviors does this candidate need to do the job?
Kate YoungIt's not all bad news though for small business owners on that front, because one of the really positive things about, and there are positives about people using AI to polish their CVs, is it removes the noise. If everybody's CV is polished, actually, in theory, if they're not fabricating, it leaves small business owners free to focus on the content of that CV rather than getting distracted by who has the best looking or the most typo-free CV. So, it's actually kind of removing a source of noise and potentially giving more opportunities to people to present themselves in the best way to small businesses.
Al ElliottThat's such a good point as well, because like if If everyone's got a microphone, then nobody's got a microphone. You know, if everyone's got a Mercedes, then no one's got a Mercedes. So, is the solution then to try and ban AI on the candidate side, or is that just a ridiculous route to try and go down?
Kate YoungI think you can no more do that than ban the internet, to be honest.
Al ElliottIt did sound like a bit of a question that I was gonna get shouted at for asking, but do people ban it? Or try and ban it.
Kate YoungThey do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all clients have got different approach— all clients, all organizations rather, I mean, have got different approaches. Some will outright say, you may not use AI at any point in your application. Some will actively encourage the use of it. Some will say, you can use it in part X, but not part Y. I'm talking, to be honest, mainly about larger businesses who tend to already have these policies. The chances are smaller businesses have thought much, much less about what their candidate AI policy is because They've got 101 other things to think about. And I think any small business owner listening who tries to ban AI in their applications or hiring processes is on a hiding to nothing, because unless they know something the rest of us don't about being able to perfectly detect and monitor that, it's simply not a good use of time.
Ben HawkesBut one thing that does help to manage candidates' use of AI is simply putting that up front and having a a contract, an agreement with them. And we see many large employers are doing that, and smaller ones can as well, where when a candidate is applying, you're explaining, this is how you can use AI in the process, and this is how we don't want you to use the AI. And the candidates can sign that as an honesty contract. Now, is it 100% foolproof? Of course not. But it does make clear to candidates, because it can be ambiguous, it makes it clear to candidates, where they can use AI, where they can't. There will always be some who circumvent that and ride roughshod in with their AI. But at least by making it clear and having that commitment from the candidate, it does reduce the likelihood of candidates using AI in ways that you don't want. And there's good empirical research to support that. It's not them.
Al ElliottYeah.
Ben HawkesUm, a panacea. It's not the only solution, but it's part of the solution.
Al ElliottCan I ask a question then? As a business owner, part of when I used to recruit, I'd be looking for the good-looking resumes, CVs, the ones that were polished, the ones that were clear, easy to read. I'd be looking for those. Now, now with, as we've said, now everyone's got AI, everyone's CV can look fantastic. So what should we be screening for?
Kate YoungWell, it depends what job you're hiring for.
Leanne ElliottFair point. Classic psychologist, it depends.
Kate YoungYeah. Well, I mean, Leanne, in defense, we could take this down the job analysis route at this point, couldn't we? We could say, well, figure out the job you're hiring for, do your job analysis, break down what are the skills, knowledge, and attributes that you need. Do that in the most robust way possible, and then hire against that. And that's actually a great potential use of AI for small businesses, because one thing it can be genuinely helpful for is bringing together a lot of kind of source material, notes, whatever you've got that tells you how the job is done, including getting it to interview you. That's a nice way. So, you can have your favorite AI say, interview me about this job, ask me lots of questions about what this person's gonna do day to day. And that's a great way of collecting lots of information fast, and then potentially distilling out knowledge, skills, and abilities. Now, is it gonna be perfect? Absolutely not. There are some very well-built, robust AI job analysis products out there that have been tested and beaten up and monitored. But if used judiciously with a decent level of human review to help you bring source information together, I think that's a great use of AI to start to think about what am I hiring from. To answer your original question, Al, which I was paying attention to, I just went around the houses there.
Al ElliottThank you. Thank you. Any thoughts, Ben?
Ben HawkesYeah, it's not like AI has suddenly rendered CVs useless and broken them. CVs were always of limited use. Yeah, they were of course a very important part of the process, but no one hires on the basis of CV alone. And I think we should bear that in mind so that when we are Selecting people, yes, they might have a good-looking CV, they might tick all the boxes, but then what do you do next? Well, perhaps invite them to take some sort of online assessment. Now, whether online assessments are immune from AI use, that's a different discussion. But the CV is one form of evidence, quite a narrow form of evidence. Looking for ways for candidates to demonstrate that evidence, whether it's through— interview, and it might just be a short phone interview or something more detailed, or through online assessment. There's multiple ways to get the candidate to demonstrate those skills outside of purely the CV. As I say, the CV is not suddenly broken. It's always been a bit dodgy.
Leanne ElliottIt has always felt like that, just that first indication that somebody could be suitable for the job and everything that comes after it is is kind of the real focus of things. I loved what you were saying, Kate, about how ChatGPT or Claude could actually be really good at helping us kind of condense this, analyze information into a kind of a job analysis type exercise to pick out those kind of knowledge, skills, and abilities. And that seems like a safe place for me for small businesses to use AI in hiring, particularly if they don't have any kind of in-house HR or people and culture. Are there any other examples you've seen of business owners using AI in a way that has been effective in a hiring decision?
Kate YoungIt's quite good at interview questions. It knows all the formats, you know, it knows the classic ones we as Zox Psychs use, Leanne, you know, style, situation, task, action, result. There we go, I can remember them. And if you give it, you know, the skills, abilities, competencies you want to measure, it will do a good job of coming up with some pretty robust interview questions for you. It'll save you a job, but also, because they're there printed in front of you, it means then you're going to use those questions for every candidate. You're not walking into the interview busy after your last meeting going, ah, what am I going to ask? It's there. You can standardize it across candidates, and suddenly your hiring process has got a lot more robust and fair with just some quite simple steps. I think it's probably better than me at writing interview questions these days. Definitely one of its shining star cases, I would say, Ben.
Ben HawkesYep. And AI is excellent at polishing what you've written, what you drafted, that might be for a job description or a job ad or any materials like that. Kate and I use Grammarly. She's a reluctant adopter of that because it's excellent at taking my just word salad that I can dump in there and say, Turn this into some paragraphs that make sense. And that is a handy tool to have. That's a time saver. I'm not getting AI to generate it. I'm getting AI to put my thoughts in order. And that can be useful for if you're drafting job descriptions or, as Kate said, interview questions or ads. And another great way of using the AI is rather than telling it to do the the job analysis, ask the AI to ask you the right questions. So, I want to write a job description for this role. ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, ask me the right questions that you need to gather the information. And then, as it's got that information from you, it can then compile that into a document rather than relying on the AI's knowledge of of the job. Get it to act as an expert, as if you've got a fancy HR or recruitment director sat with you asking you the right questions, and the AI can do a good job with that. And then the information that it's basing its draft job description or job ad on is information that's come from you. And that's That's a great way of using it because you're not asking it to make decisions. You're asking it to compile information from you.
Leanne ElliottWelcome to the break.
Al ElliottYes, my favorite part of the show. These, these 2 idiots have stopped talking.
Leanne ElliottYes, I want to tell you about my new favorite podcast. No, that's a lie. It's my old favorite podcast.
Al ElliottI've been on this for a while. Didn't know where that was going. Didn't know where that was going.
Leanne ElliottIt is called I Digress. It is hosted by Troy Sandage and it is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottYes, it's got shows that are under 30 minutes, and I Digress helps eliminate complexity, complications, and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies that achieve scalable and sustainable success. At least that's what it says here.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you do want to hear a really personal story, go to episode 136. This is Troy's honest account of fatherhood, killing hustle culture, and what really matters when you stop performing and start living with intention.
Al ElliottListen to I Digress wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottThat concludes the break.
Al ElliottLet's return to the scheduled programming.
Leanne ElliottBack to the studio.
Al ElliottThere's a great— by the way, if anyone's listening and they're like, and a small business, and they're like, well, okay, well, I might not be able to go off and find some experts. I haven't got the budget for that. There is a great skill for Claude and OpenAI called Grill Me by Matt Pocock. I'll put a link in the show notes. I use it all the time. I invoke the skill and it basically keeps asking me questions. And it also does it in a visual ask question tool thing. So you can tap on things. It is really, really good.
Leanne ElliottSo I'll put a link. Question as somebody who isn't quite as familiar with prompt engineering as you are. I'm sorry, what? What do you mean? What do you tell it?
Al ElliottYou basically just load the skill up. You load the skill into Claude.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you mean load the skill?
Al ElliottWe don't need to go into that right now. You can go into Claude desktop app and you can, you can add a skill, which is basically a markdown file. And what this does is like a, it's like a, um, God, I see Ben looking and both of them looking deep into my soul going, go on, Al, get yourself out of this one. Really what I wanted to say was there's a great skill. Claude's got it. It could grill you and get all the cool information out of you. This is why I don't say this. I say too much of these things. Lee, carry on.
Leanne ElliottNo, I think it's useful. You could probably just ask Claude as well, can you explain that to you, like how to do it.
Al ElliottYeah, just say install Grill Me by Matt Pocock.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, sorry, before we get back to the interview, I do need to say this because I know Al will be upset when we watch this back. Currently on LinkedIn, we're kind of squished in, so you can't really see me and you. Is that something we can, we can play with?
Al ElliottWow, by the power of my Stream Deck, let's see if we can do that. If I can fix that, it'll be 30 seconds.
Leanne ElliottIt will be, it will be. He'll shout at me afterwards if he knew that. That I knew. So anyway, sorry, Ben, Kate. It feels like from what you've said so far, using generative AI could be really useful for helping business owners and leaders with the process. So with the job analysis, with putting a job description together, with creating a clear list of knowledge, skills, and abilities, creating standardized interview questions. I guess my next question is, where does this benefit start to disappear?
Kate YoungOh, I think we both have the same answer. We could both in unison just say the decision, but I'll try and be a bit more nuanced. There are lots of products on the market that are used by big business, just call them AI hiring products for argument's sake, that will do your scoring and evaluation of an interview, of a CV, Perhaps a work sample task. Now, those products, the better ones at least, have been robustly beaten up before they've gone anywhere near candidate data. They've been tested, they're monitored for fairness, they've been put through a whole bunch of studies that nerds like Ben and I will conduct. And in that case, using AI for scoring your interview or other kind of output can genuinely be a marked improvement if A whole list of conditions are met, which we have in a PowerPoint if anyone's interested. However, as a small business owner, you do not have access to all of the many resources that are needed to make sure that AI can robustly score an interview output. I honestly wouldn't put it anywhere near it. If you've not got the right framework that you've tested and monitored and beaten up, at that point, it's over to you. It's your job to do the scoring as a human being. That's not to say you can't ask it to suggest a format for how you might sort of do your ticking and crossing, so you stick to a good process. But I wouldn't have it anywhere near the scoring personally. Ben?
Ben HawkesYep, absolutely agree with that, that it's better to ask the AI, how do I select between these candidates, than to ask the AI to select between the candidates, because then it can give you a process, give you some rigor, and you make that decision. Because as Kate says, you don't, as a small business owner, you don't have the benefit of large organizations where you've had 10,000, 100,000 candidates take an assessment that has been powered by AI, and you've got all of this great data to support the decision. You don't, but use it as a tool to help you make the right decision by it telling you how to do that. The other place that goes wrong is we talk about human in the loop a lot with AI, and it's always important to have a human in the loop, having a person who is reviewing the output and the decisions before they go anywhere else. The danger is because AI creates content that looks great and is so fluent, you might just take that output and go, yep, that's great, and send it out. Could be a job advert, job description, could be an email, could be anything. You've got to treat AI as a, at best, a first draft machine. You've got to review what it comes up with, not just because it might hallucinate. Yeah, I mean, that still happens, but because you do still need to humanize this. It's getting increasingly the case that people can spot AI writing or AI content. And if someone is sending me something that is completely AI generated, I can see that they've had no role in in editing it or reviewing it or condensing it, then that's a big turnoff because it means that that cognitive effort has now been pushed to me to review this and figure out whether it's worthwhile or not. So always be that human in the loop. Don't just let the AI generate stuff and then you think, yep, that's fine, and send it out.
Kate YoungThe other, just one interesting gotcha, if you start to ask LLMs to make decisions between candidates, is they're a bit like your overly opinionated relative at a dinner party. They won't say, I don't know. They're literally told not to say, I don't know. The point is to answer your question. So, an LLM will force a tiebreak between 2 CVs or 2 near-identical candidates, and it will give you a spurious reason for doing so.
Al ElliottCan I ask a quick question around policies? Because I think we've— there's plenty of data out there showing that businesses are using AI for recruitment. I suspect, like myself back in the day, they won't have any kind of policy for it whatsoever. And I know, I'm pretty sure you're gonna tell me that that is a big risk, but is it just a, I should have one, or is it really actually gonna bite me in the backside? Well, I think it's a bit of both.
Ben HawkesIt is a huge risk for lots of reasons. One is that you need some sort of quality control on how people are using AI and using the outputs of AI, because AI can produce nonsense, and you need to make sure that people are using it in the right way.
Kate YoungYeah.
Ben HawkesExplain to people how they can use it and how they're not allowed to use it. Lots of bigger organizations have almost like a traffic light model, that it's okay to use it for this, you can use it for this, but be very careful, and then there's some things you cannot use it for. And that can be helpful. But the risks are enormous when you've got—
Kate YoungLet me 2 examples.
Ben HawkesSo if you're using it, you're uploading CVs to ChatGPT to select candidates, then there's a risk of a legal challenge there that you're having the AI make decisions for you. I'm not going to get into the details of the EU AI Act, which is coming into force next year, but AI-based decision-making, there's the potential for legal challenges. against that. So making sure that your employees are not using it in that way is important. The other thing is, if you've got people using AI and they're uploading information, employee information, candidate information, are you sure you know where that's going? Now, Claude, ChatGPT, Gemini at Google, those are probably pretty secure, but what about all these other models that people are using that are hosted who knows where, there's a data protection issue. And no organization wants to see their data ingested by an AI and then suddenly popping up in answers next year because some employee uploaded a bunch of PDFs they shouldn't have done. And that's got ingested into the knowledge base, the corpus of the AI. Those are just 2 of the risks, but at the very least, having guidance so employees understand what they can and cannot use is helpful. Kate, I don't know whether you want to jump in and talk about shadow AI use, because I know that's something we've been looking at a lot recently.
Kate YoungI mean, I think it probably all comes under the same thing. If you're going to have an AI policy, it should state what you can use it for, but also what tools you can use. So, typically, in small businesses, shadow AI use is going to be people Going, oh, I don't like Copilot that I've been told I can use with my Microsoft suite, or Gemini if they're Google Workspace like us. So, get their phone and they start putting things into Claude or whatever. And suddenly, because Claude's not within the organization's licensing and privacy controls, and you've got a case of shadow AI use where you've started to put your hiring data or whatever into a whole external AI, and you're in breach of it. And I think because we've kind of The sort of work-life blurring we all have with our devices, our laptops and our mobiles and so on and so forth, it's really easy to quite innocently start tapping away on an external AI tool with some sensitive hiring data. And before you know it, you're really, you're very much in breach of any policy that might exist.
Al ElliottLeigh, can we just stop for a quick question we've got here from someone? It just says LinkedIn user, so That's potentially their full name.
Leanne ElliottI think it's Robin Collins, if it's the same question I'm looking at.
Al ElliottRCB's defunct, given all the reasons you're just speaking about. What was the name, sorry?
Leanne ElliottRobin Collins.
Al ElliottRobin. Okay, guys, have you got any thoughts on that quickly before we move on?
Kate YoungThey're not quick thoughts.
Al ElliottFair enough. I did constrain that a little bit. Have you got any thoughts on that?
Ben HawkesShort answer, no. Long answer, No, but yes, they are still a useful indicator. They are a document that shows career history, education, but they've always been of limited use. But no, they're not entirely defunct yet.
Kate YoungI spoke to a provider the other day, and if the market goes this way, CVs could have a little bit of a renaissance. And what they're producing is something that rather than taking kind of a traditional reference, it takes the parts of a CV and auto-contacts the line managers for verification before then passing that forward to a hiring manager. Because like I said, the biggest issue with CVs isn't polish. If everyone's polished, then it's irrelevant, but it's verifying what's on there. So, I think if we start to move towards that sort of world with sort of pre-verified CVs, Could, they could become useful again.
Al ElliottInteresting. It's all cyclical, isn't it?
Kate YoungMm-hmm.
Al ElliottLee.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I, I, it's, it's so interesting, isn't it? I guess one, one thing I'm thinking of, of some of the, the entrepreneurs are so creative, aren't they? All trying to solution everything. I'm, I can imagine some business owners thinking, well, I'll just get people to send in videos. Then I know it won't be AI. Um, even though you can probably do that now as well, can't you somehow? I don't know. Is solutions like that something that is a good thing, or is that equally problematic in other ways, Ben?
Ben HawkesIt's a whole new set of problems, but it can be a solution for some roles. I won't get into detail about the video, but yes, video deepfaking essentially is a challenge. So, if we think that CVs have lost a lot of value because they can be polished with AI. Wait till you hear about video interviews where you've got some very believable candidates who aren't actually candidates, that are AI instead. So, I think creative solutions, yes, but those creative solutions do have to be grounded in what is it that we're looking for. We're not looking for, for many roles, we're not looking for audition tapes. We just want—
Kate YoungRight.
Ben HawkesWhat evidence is there that this person can do the job? And that can be very different for different types of jobs. For some of them, you may want to look at the candidate's LinkedIn profiles and read their posts and get into more— see more information there about the projects that they've done. For others, it might be to prove their skills on some assessment, either—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Ben HawkesRemotely or in person. So it very much depends on the job. Now, would there be— video interviews are definitely a thing, and I don't think that the majority of candidates are yet AI-powered, but there's a risk there. So video interviews definitely still have their place, and interviews generally, because that gives you a chance then to probe what's on the CV, to ask those questions, to verify it as well as to get further information. So ironically, it's an old-school solution here, is just to speak to the person.
Al ElliottCan we get onto a little bit of the strategies here? So I'm guessing, like, what I'd love to hear is someone's listening to this and going, great, okay, I now need to start using AI properly. for hiring, what are some, not necessarily some simple or quick wins, but what can I actually do? Like, do you have like a list of things, go off and do these things and things will be better for you?
Kate YoungI think you were working through this yesterday, Ben.
Ben HawkesThings that you can do with AI. So you're thinking of what What people could do straight away. Is that what you're asking?
Al ElliottYeah, it's really, it's a bad question. It's a badly worded question. I think it's a good question. It's probably something that I would, if I was listening to this, I'd be like, cool, this sounds brilliant, but what do I do tomorrow? I need to go and find a new project manager. So how do I, what do I, what's the first 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 things I do?
Ben HawkesThat's great. Well, sign up for ChatGPT or Gemini or Claude or Microsoft Copilot, whichever Whichever you might have. And the simplest thing to do is say to that AI, hey, I'm recruiting for a project manager, what do you suggest? And it should, and it probably will, set out exactly how you can do that. Ask it to ask you the right questions to do this, or ask it how it can help. And if you ask it how it'll help, it'll give you a list of these things that it can do. And you can say, okay, yeah, let's start off with a job description. How do we do that? And at no point is the AI making decisions or even necessarily drafting stuff for you. It's helping you through that process. It's giving you clarity about what you need to do. It's acting as a little HR or recruitment advisor in a box. And so asking what it can do for you is a great place to start. And then have it draft the job description. Ask it, where should I post this job? What are some great places to advertise this? And the AI is pretty good at doing the research for you and suggesting sites where you might want to advertise this job or post it. You want to post that job on LinkedIn? Sure, have the AI make a draft of that. of that job posting. And literally all you need to do is, okay, well, here's the job. Can you write me a job posting for LinkedIn? And it'll do it. It's like magic. And then you can review that and edit that. And then when you've got these applicants coming in, and we know what it's like on LinkedIn, you might have 100, 200 applicants, you could ask the AI, What's the best way to review these? Not giving the AI all the CVs, but asking it for what's the most efficient way of doing this. So it can act as a, it can draft content for you, but it can act as an advisor as well. And that's extremely useful. It's almost like getting just-in-time training that I need to do this, how do I do it? And the AI is there telling you how to do it. Not always perfect, Absolutely not always perfect. So you do need your own common sense, but it enables you to do things quickly without having to go to the internet and find out, well, how do I write a job description? Because the AI is right there to help you and to hold your hand. So that's probably the one piece of advice I have is ask the AI to ask you the right questions.
Kate YoungCan I quickly add to that? I would say also ask it to be adversarial because what I observe with small business owners hiring, and they do it with busy people, best of intent, but I mean, quite often they're hiring their own image or they'll think, Leanne was brilliant in that role, how do I find another Leanne? And they'll sort of fall into these small kind of traps and biases. And so asking the AI, and you can tell it, say, act like an occupational psychologist who's got 20 years of experience in assessment and selection. And when I say something or go off-piste or suggest a criteria that's not in line with best practice, tell me. And by giving it that permission and telling it to sort of beat you up a little bit, it will catch the most common gotchas. Not quite like having a real oxyc there, of course, but it's basically free and it will get some of them.
Al ElliottKate, you mentioned shadow AI, I think was the phrase you used, wasn't it? Yeah. So imagine that I'm a small business and I've got a Google Workspace paid account and I've got Gemini as part of that. Can I automatically assume that if I upload something to there, it's staying in my organization?
Kate YoungYes. My understanding of the Google Workspace contract is that Gemini has the same access to your data as your Google Docs and your spreadsheets and so on and so forth. So it is completely gated within your organization. I would, urge any listeners to check their own policies, but that is the basis of the Google Workspace agreement.
Al ElliottWell, that would be different if I uploaded it to ChatGPT or Claude because there's no such agreement in place.
Kate YoungYes. I mean, there's different tiers, and Ben knows a little bit more about this. But so with sort of Claude Pro, it mandates your data's not used for training, but there are still certain ways your data can leak back, is the wrong term. So for example, if you give feedback on its outputs, for example, then Some of that is passed back. So, the absolute safest thing is to do whatever you've got locked within your organization, which is typically going to be Gemini or Copilot, although lots more organizations are getting Claude Enterprise licenses now, or whatever they're called.
Leanne ElliottI really enjoy that. I feel like I was like making notes as you were both talking that we've got 5 things that we're kind of saying, to, to business owners and leaders, go for it. And that's in terms of kind of a little job analysis, putting together a job description, sometimes advertising strategy and what the actual job advert looks like, um, advice around CV screening, like how to approach it, not do it, um, interview questions and helping you put those together, some standardized interview questions. And, uh, the last one you said, Kate, was— Supporting with avoiding bias and making sure we're kind of adhering to best practice. If they're the 5 things that you're like, small businesses, crack on, go for it, good for you, have fun, is there 1 or 2 you're like, no, absolutely not, don't even think about it?
Kate YoungHave it make the decision. Put any PII, personally identifying information, into an external AI. Go on, Ben. What's the third?
Ben HawkesWell, I think, yeah, don't let it make decisions about candidates or employees is important. My second one would be don't ever let the AI-generated content, never release that without reviewing it. You've always got to be that human in the loop. And the Third one would be, don't believe the hype. There is a lot, you may have noticed, there is a lot of hype around AI. And if people are making claims about AI systems that can then find the best candidate for you out of 1,000 of them and come up with a shortlist and it's bias-free, well, the old maxim that if it sounds too good to be true, it's not. probably is, is something to bear in mind. So be wary of the hype around AI. If you're not treating it with enthusiasm and skepticism, then be concerned. That's what you should see from anyone involved in AI, enthusiasm, but skepticism as well.
Al ElliottLove that. Love that. Verify, trust but verify.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. It just feels like it's all summed up by the, you can't replace the human judgment element in selection and assessment. Is that fair?
Ben HawkesI think that's very true. And perhaps the ironic impact of AI is that there's going to be more and more value placed on that human one-to-one interaction, because that's the only authentic, genuine thing that we can be sure of. I think especially candidates still want to be speaking to a human being. They understand for the most part that AI and technology is needed, but what do they value? It's not being selected by AI. What they value is contact with a real human. And so absolutely, you're right that that human touch is still very much and needs to be Brilliant.
Leanne ElliottI'm noticing we're having more people join us now, which is lovely. Welcome. And if you do have a question or a comment, do leave it in the comments. We will get to it. Kate, I wanna ask you about when I first started hearing about AI being used in recruitment, I remember reading something and I can't remember where, but it was something like the concern was because the majority of recruitment selection assessment processes are already biased because there's lots of people not doing things by best practice. And if we're just putting all of this into LLMs and it's learning from us, then inherently AI is going to be biased. Is that massively oversimplified? Is there any evidence of that? What's happening there?
Kate YoungThat is probably an oversimplification, yes. So, hiring has always been full of bias, absolutely. We know that certain groups of people have always got the best jobs over the years, and those typically might be people who identify as white, who are privately educated, so on and so forth. Those people enjoy advantages on the jobs market through no fault of their own. We know that there's really well-documented biases in hiring, the affiliation bias, when you spot something in someone else that reminds you of them, same school, same hobby, Whatever, I'm saying bag, it doesn't matter. But that triggers a very kind of warm tribal feeling in us and encourages us to make a positive evaluation of that person on a really unconscious level. Now, AI on the face of it doesn't suffer from those biases per se, because we've given it a set of criteria and it should, in theory, score against those criteria. But actually, what we're finding more and more is it's got its own different set of biases. So, for example, it does suffer from affiliation bias. So, if you have a CV and you've made that CV with ChatGPT and it's being scored by ChatGPT, ChatGPT will prefer the ChatGPT CV over the Claude or the Gemini or the Copilot CV, which is kind of nuts when you think about it. But there's quite a well-documented study that found that relatively recently. And the other thing is LLMs typically prefer fluency. Polish, and people who talk more. And those are the same people who would've been traditionally rewarded in interviews. They speak better, they perhaps speak the Queen's English, they're grammatically correct, they're confident, they talk more. So, we're seeing some of those same biases, but manifesting in really different ways. But I guess the hopeful point in all of this is, broadly speaking, when an AI tool is biased, it's biased in a relatively So, humans are quite inconsistent. Sometimes we're biased because we're hungry, or we're cross, or it's the end of the day and we're cognitively overloaded. There's loads of reasons for us to be inconsistent. If you look at a bunch of data from an AI hiring system, you can generally find and capture that bias and think about what you're going to do with it. You adjust your prompts and your guardrails. So, my kind of conclusion is if people are on it, if people are monitoring and checking and thinking, Then we can kind of grab those biases and code them out over time, but it requires a lot of hard work. And otherwise, we will, as I kind of went through, we'll just sort of encode a different set of biases.
Al ElliottCan I ask, which is kind of a follow-on from that, so now it might be a bit of a revelation, I think, for some people. It certainly was for me when I first heard you say this, Kate, was that we think AI's got biases, but actually humans have also got biases. So you're going, cool, okay, now I understand that, but how do I actually choose a tool which has got the least amount of bias? How do I— you've said to me all the options I've got here, and I'm like, cool, I understand all this, but I just want something practical. Like, tell us a bit about how you choose a tool where, when you're looking at these ads, you say most things look too good to be true. Yes, most of them do, and most of them are, but what is actually something we can trust as a business owner?
Kate YoungI think as a small business owner, it's hard because realistically, an AI tool that's been properly audited for bias, so that can be an external audit run by an external company if you're looking for a quality sign, or it could be that the AI provider themselves has done that analysis to how it performs with different groups, you know, do men and women score equally, and they're willing to share it with you. Typically, as a small business owner, you're unlikely to have the budget to access that kind of robust tool. AI hiring tools are designed to be bought by big businesses. So, I think then we come really back to Ben's excellent advice on small businesses and how to use it to take you through a very structured process, which doesn't really answer your question, but I think that's probably the answer for small businesses.
Leanne ElliottI think that's a great thing, and maybe you can build on this, Ben, but I'm not sure that many business owners would know that actually there are kind of independent studies happening to check kind of the accuracy, reliability, bias of these AI tools. So, if an organization either doesn't have this or isn't willing to share that, is that a fairly big red flag, Ben?
Ben HawkesYeah, so that transparency is really important. So, if you're speaking to any vendor, if they can explain what's happening under the under the hood, under the bonnet of their tool, that's great. If they're being very protective saying, oh, this is patented technology, we can't explain it, or we can't disclose it, then that's a concern. So if they can't explain how it works to you, there might be various reasons for that, then I'll tend to want to walk away. Another sign is there's a lot of startups out there that have created assessment or HR technology tools in general. And what I'd be looking for from a vendor is what's their pedigree and also who's involved in it? If it's a bunch of data scientists, no offense to data scientists, they'll have a very competent, very analytical tool, but without HR expertise or occupational or industrial organizational psychology, then are they sure the right decisions are being made? So, in looking at vendors, I'd be looking at who's been involved in building these systems. What's the track record? Also, looking at what are the client list as well, to give you some—
Al ElliottYeah.
Ben HawkesReassurance. I think you can de-risk choosing a new vendor by not picking one that has just launched in the last couple of months. I mean, there's a case to use those sometimes, but to use more established ones with a client list, ones who are willing to provide a technical manual for the assessment, or even know what a technical manual technical manual needs to include from an occupational psychologist's point of view. Those are the things I'd be looking for, is their willingness to be open, their ability to explain what's happening, and that they're not talking about AI mumbo jumbo, but instead are understanding what their product does and understanding the need of you as a potential client to ask those questions.
Kate YoungOkay. And if you do get your hands on a technical manual, if it's really, really boring with pages and pages of numbers, it's probably good. A technical manual doesn't have pretty pictures in it and nice stories about it and photos of happy users. It's got pages of stats in it. Quick, quick surface level evaluation.
Ben HawkesI love that.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think that's actually good advice for For a business leader choosing any kind of tool or intervention, whether it be around employee engagement or wellbeing or recruitment, yeah, people should be transparent about the process and the science and the data that sits behind. I have beef with some very large organizations in the engagement world, but that's just me.
Ben HawkesOne thing I will say is that the AI in selecting products, selecting vendors is Very, very complicated. And it's okay to, as a small business owner, to ask for help from a peer or someone you know who does understand it, because this is extremely complicated. I wouldn't expect most people to be able to ask the right questions of vendors. And if that's the case, try and find someone who can help you do that, not doing it on your own. There is a lot of good experts out there. expertise out there and probably friends, colleagues will have some of that expertise. So yeah, lean on others and use their expertise.
Al ElliottKate, Ben, let's think about like, business is tough as it is if you're a small business. So is there something that we are as business owners generally spending money on in the recruitment process that we stop spending money on and start diverting that money to some kind of AI solution? I'm putting you properly on the spot.
Kate YoungThe biggest source of wasted money I see in hiring processes is endless interviews. So typically, a small business hasn't bought a psychometric, or they've bought one of the ones that shall not be named, and instead they're doing an interview. So you meet the hiring manager, you meet their manager, and then maybe you meet the CEO if it's kind of a 100-person business. For argument's sake. And an interview is expensive. It's expensive. You're taking someone out of their day job to meet someone, evaluate, maybe you're doing 10 interviews per role, and it's literally the time is money piece. So instead, the solution there, rather than doing multiple interviews that probably aren't really adding much, is to make sure you're doing 1 or 2 that are really good in the first place. And the way to make them really good is that job analysis, that structured process, and to follow the principles from the off. And then when you make that repeatable and you make that habit in your small business, You've genuinely got an efficient hiring process. Nice.
Al ElliottAny other thoughts?
Ben HawkesI don't have much to add to that because, yes, that interview cycle, I've seen companies that have put candidates through over a dozen interviews for a role, and you've got to have some diminishing returns after interview 5 or 6, I'd have thought. Use the AI to help you plan that interview cycle. What should you be asking for at this interview or that interview? And given the job description, the AI will help you come up with an efficient process. So, you're reliant on interviews and just spending— you want to be respectful of the candidate's time as well. So, you want to make it efficient.
Al ElliottYeah.
Ben HawkesYou want every part of that contact you have with the candidate to be useful, as optimal as possible. So, you owe it to the candidate and for your own time to make that process efficient. And AI can help you do that, not by taking over the process, by helping you plan it.
Al ElliottThis is great. This is great. Leanne, we're getting to the top of the hour. Is there any other question you think, one last question needs to be asked?
Leanne ElliottI think you've given so many grateful hints and tips, genuinely brilliant advice for For people listening. So, I guess my question is, if there was just one thing you wanted a really rushed, busy, under-pressure leader, business owner listening, just one takeaway you wanted them to really cling to, to make hiring and recruitment better for everybody, especially that £14,000 back in the business of the cost of a bad hire, what's the one tip that That would kind of be your go-to? Kate, can I start with you?
Kate YoungThis is gonna sound really basic and repetitive. Sorry, I have terrible hedging languages, which by the way, LLMs hate. Don't put hedging language if you're applying, they hate it. But I think it's defining what you actually need the person to do in the job, because it's the part that gets skipped most often in small businesses, because people think they instinctively know, and they truly, truly don't.
Leanne ElliottBeautiful. Ben?
Ben HawkesAnd for me, ironically, in a discussion about AI, my one thing would be, be human. And that means being the person who reviews the AI draft and make sure that it's what you want, not what the AI is generating. Be human in the sense of having contact with candidates because they value that as well. So, to not lose sight, despite all of these shiny things and the bells and whistles that AI give us, that, yeah, simply to be human.
Leanne ElliottAmazing. Thank you both so much. I know people listening will want to learn more about you, more about your work. Where's the best place for them to go?
Kate Youngwww.thehiringsciencestudio.com, or either of our LinkedIns or the Hiring Science Studio page. And do please go ahead, add us, reach out. We talk to small businesses and AI startups all the time. We always learn something from you.
Leanne ElliottBrilliant, thank you. Well, if you're watching back, watching on LinkedIn or watching back on LinkedIn, obviously you'll see Kate and Ben tagged in the event. If you are listening on the regular audio podcast, all the links will be in the show notes. Kate, Ben, thank you so much. It's been genuinely really, really interesting and helpful. If people do have questions after As Kate said, they're happy to be contacted. You can leave a comment on Spotify if that's where you listen to podcasts. You can leave it on the LinkedIn event, or you can also access their profiles and get in touch directly. Al, any final thoughts before we leave these lovely, lovely people?
Al ElliottNo, I really enjoyed this. I'm a massive fan of AI, as you know, but also it's really interesting because Leanne balances me out and goes, have you thought about this side of it? And you've just given me another thing to think about. And I did love The fact that both of you went, yeah, human in the loop. And that seemed to be the most important 4 words you said over the whole thing was just don't, don't just give Claude vibe code, vibe code your, uh, your, your, uh, your hiring. Just keep a human in the loop. So that was great. So thank you so, so much for your time.
Kate YoungThank you very much.
Leanne ElliottAmazing. Everyone, thank you so, so much. We will be back next Tuesday with another occupational psychologist. We can't get enough of them. We're back with Nicole Williams. She'll be joining us on our news roundup and leading our Truth or Lies. So look out for that. And our Thursday episodes continue with incredible guests. We've got such a great lineup. Al and I actually sat this morning and worked out our entire schedule through till January 7th. That's how committed we are to bringing you great stuff. So do definitely subscribe, follow Truth, Lies and Work on Instagram. Come find us on Instagram. You can actually, you can. I don't promote that very much. And I'm on LinkedIn. I might get shadow banned on LinkedIn now. Actually, the competitor. Uh, but anyway, yeah, follow, subscribe. Uh, we, we love it when you get in touch as well. Um, so yeah, I think that's it. We'll see you next week.
Al ElliottSee you later.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye. That's it for this one. Thank you so much for listening. If you would like to connect with any of our panelists, you'll find all of their details in the show notes. If you'd like to be a future guest on one of our LinkedIn Lives, we would love to hear from you. Drop us an email at [email protected]. And if you enjoyed this, please do leave a review. It genuinely helps more people find the show. See you soon.
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