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Ep29: Coaches and Mentors Unleashed: How to Tap into Their Power for Business Success

From average to exceptional: How coaches and mentors can help you reach your goals

Happy International Women’s Day!

We’re celebrating with a panel of formidable women talking about the power (and future!) of coaching and mentoring.

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We’re honoured to be joined by:

Julie Meyer

A serial entrepreneur and Founder & Co-CEO of Augmentors, a content platform dedicated to creating a fresh language around the timeless concept of mentoring. She’s also Co-Host of the Augmentors Podcast, our sibling show on the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Lucy Mullins & Sonya Shellard

Lucy and Sonya are experienced professionally accredited coaches, coach educators, coach supervisors and trainers. They are both business owners running successful coaching and consulting companies working with a variety of clients including entrepreneurs, FTSE 100 companies, universities, and charities

They both studied at the University of Oxford and are co-founders and co-directors of #RideTheWave Professional Coach Training, which offer Association for Coaching accredited coach training programmes for executive, personal, business and leader coaches.

Paulwyn Devasundaram. 

Founder and CEO of Medoo, a smart coaching tool co-created with coaches and powered by AI. Medoo helps you design a coaching journey and track insights along the way.

In this bumper episode, we cover everything you need to know about engaging and working with coaches and mentors. Join the conversation as we answer:

  • What’s the difference between coaching and mentoring?
  • Can anyone be a coach and a mentor?
  • What should I expect from a coach or mentor?
  • How do you find a coach or a mentor?
  • What happens if I don’t like my coach or mentor?
  • What’s the science? Why bother?
  • What’s the business case for coaching and mentoring?
  • What is the future of coaching, including the impact of AI?



All the links mentioned in the show.

Connect with Julie:

Connect with Lucy:

Connect with Sonya:

Find Out More About #RideTheWave Professional Coaching

Everything you need to know is here:

Connect with Paulwyn:

From the News Round-up

The Good Life: Lessons from the World’s Longest Study on Happiness, by Robert Waldinger –

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The Transcript

⚠️ NOTE: This is an automated transcript, so it might not always be 100% accurate!

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Al Elliott  0:00  
apologise for the audio quality on this particular episode, we had a catastrophic data loss which meant that I had to rely on our backups you might hear I was coughing over guests, or maybe just me stroking my beard. Sorry about that.

Leanne Elliott  0:16  
Hello and welcome to the truth lies and workplace culture podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I’m a Business psychologist.

Al Elliott  0:27  
My name is Al I’m a business owner,

Leanne Elliott  0:28  
and we’re here to help you simplify the science of people. Welcome,

Al Elliott  0:33  
welcome, welcome. So today what are we talking about today, Leanne.

Leanne Elliott  0:37  
Today we are talking about coaching and mentoring. That was a coachee coaching versus mentoring. It’s not fight, but we’re going to explore some differences.

Al Elliott  0:47  
You say that but my marketing mind is already going okay. Right. Who’s the evil one? Are we gonna we’re gonna definitely have a fight. So you might see the title of this is sometimes Lian doesn’t approve of Berta mentoring and coaching is it really a horrendous waste of time?

Leanne Elliott  1:05  
Oh, but let’s let’s find out, shall we? If that is your if that is your question listener coming into this, we’ve got you that’s what we’re chatting about.

Al Elliott  1:14  
So as normal, we have three we have a number of guests, we normally do a panel kind of style episode two. So we’ve got three guests. The first one is Julie Mayer, who is a serial entrepreneur. She is founder and CEO at org mentors, which is a content platform which is dedicated to creating a fresh language around the timeless concept of mentoring. She also was a co host of org mentors podcast, which is the sippin show on HubSpot. So let’s go and meet Julie.

Unknown Speaker  1:39  
My background really is just an entrepreneurship. I really love creating b2b companies that help serve clients and the opportunity to do better in the world. And right at the beginning of the pandemic, march 11 2020, I was asked to speak in a class at Tufts University in Boston by a nice gentleman named Jimmy. And we had that kind of pre pandemic moment where we got a chance to meet, sit around with a group of students and talk about things that we cared about. And we really clicked and found that mentoring was important to both of us. So as we were locked in our homes, to extroverts, to over overactive entrepreneur, extroverts flooding ease, trapped in their homes, we just would have these Friday zoom calls and found that mentorian was a really important topic to both of us and we both had an interest in creating a content platform around it. So that’s how I mentors was born.

Al Elliott  2:33  
Interesting. I’ve never heard Jimmy described as a gentleman before.

Leanne Elliott  2:38  
Have you heard him described as

Al Elliott  2:41  
I think we should move on. I’m just adding a bit of drama.

Leanne Elliott  2:47  
And our next guests are legacy Mullins and son yet shell odd. Sonia at least they are experienced professionally accredited coaches. They are coach educators, they are coach supervisors and trainers. Um, fun fact it was actually Lucy, Lucy and Sonya that changed me and my accreditation did such a great job. They are incredible, incredible women. They’re both business owners. They run a successful coaching and consulting companies and work with a whole host of clients including entrepreneurs, footsie 100 companies, universities and charities. They also both studied at the University of Oxford. Really, yeah, fancy, very fancy, very, very clever women we have with us today. And they’re co founders and CO directors of ride the wave professional coach training, which offers association for training accredited coach training programmes for executives, personal business and leader coaches.

Al Elliott  3:41  
Let’s go meet let’s see,

Unknown Speaker  3:42  
I believe the Marlins I’m one of the cofounders of ride the wave professional coach training. I love everything to do with coaching. I call my coaching practice cheerleading, which hopefully immediately gives you a bit of insight into my personality and my style. I started my career as a fitness instructor. I love all things action, energy movement, and my passion in the coaching world is bringing neuroscience and psychology into how we coach people and can make them their best selves.

Al Elliott  4:09  
Right. So go meet Sonya.

Unknown Speaker  4:12  
Sonya shout out. So I have been coaching for a long time very grey haired. And I have many roles. Now a couple of really are some executive coaching, also running the global leadership and management development organisation called vector group. How would I describe my coaching role? So Lucy has a wonderful phrase cheerleading, I would suggest that I go into people’s circuses and come out with all the monkeys, that’s my aim is to sort of go in and leave them with the great stuff. And I often find myself with, you know, a car full of monkeys on the way out, but that’s my role, you know, really suddenly clear up dysfunction, things that are getting in the way and leaving them a little bit freer to give the best performance of their lives. Funnily enough, it was a phrase that I read recently like a mantra Polish it’s probably This proverb, and it is basically saying, you know, this is not my circus, these are not my monkeys. And it’s the idea of moving on having that sort of detachment from it. So as a coach, as an external coach, I don’t have an agenda, I have that objectivity that is lost when you’re in it. And so I can sort of guide and navigate through and help and, you know, lead the monkeys out of the arena and allow people to just see it for what is needed. So that’s where it comes from.

Al Elliott  5:27  
And our final guest is Apollo endeavour. Sundram. She’s founder and CEO of Megu, is a smart coaching tool, which is CO created with coaches and powered by AI, something we talked about at the beginning of the year that we thought AI was going to come into coaching. And clearly it is just and basically it designs a coaching journey and tracks the insights along the way. So should we go meet Paul when,

Unknown Speaker  5:47  
and Paul when I’m the co founder of Madhu, we are the smart coaching software that helps coaches and coaches get to those aha moments quicker. And yeah, it’s such a pleasure to be here today to chat with you about all things coaching and tech, and I love that intersection of tech and coaching. So pleasure to be here.

Leanne Elliott  6:07  
I think Paul when is just described for me perfectly, what great coaching does. And then I’ve had seminars, and particularly with with Sonya and Lacey being coached for them where I’ve gone. And it’s that breakthrough moment. For me, it just makes coaching just really, really, really cool. I’m excited about this week’s episode, I think we’re going to learn a lot.

Al Elliott  6:26  
I think we will too. So it’s now down to the third week of our news roundup, where we put some kind of random jingle or music behind it. And then Leanne goes through what a couple of things that she’s learned and also the Word of the Week. Yes, this is um, yeah, they’re still in testing phase this, this particular session, but with this particular segment, but let’s see how we go. I like it. You just like the jingle?

Leanne Elliott  6:49  
I do. I do enjoy the jingle. Shall I start with a new word?

Al Elliott  6:52  
Yes, new word Allah.

Leanne Elliott  6:54  
Wellness, washing. Wellness washing, don’t just say it again. Just remind myself of you know, when you watch those, like spelling bees on the telly off of the US, because we don’t really, really have them in the UK. And I think we always have someone going wellness washing. Can you repeat the word please? Wellness? Washing?

Al Elliott  7:14  
In that case? Can you use it a sentence?

Leanne Elliott  7:17  
Very good. So yeah, wellness, washing suggests that. So we have lots of wellbeing products out there, right. And when as washing suggests that the contribution of these products or services towards our wellness might not quite be as impactful or as direct as we’re led to believe. So in the workplace well being washing is when businesses will advocate for employee wellbeing, good mental health, but without backing it up with actual tangible benefits for their employees for their workforce. So really, there’s no kind of measurement of how effective this intervention is in supporting our, our wellness, there’s no kind of evaluation to it. And I think and I think that that’s good, I think it’s good that one’s washing is being talked about. My concern, and some of the things that I’ve read is that wellness washing, or the term kind of under I guess the what be the right word, like maybe the fortunate aspect of wellness interventions, it’s being attributed to the intervention, not the kind of the intent or, or context the intervention is being done in. So for example, I saw a really scathing article about coaching and how coaching is basically wellness washing, which is bullshit. But I understand the point, but I think it’s like, it’s like saying, you know, a plaster is really great for a paper cut, but it’s going to be a bit shit for a broken arm. Therefore, plastic is a completely useless and have no place in healing the human body. It’s the same, that’s what you’re seeing with the interventions or welding intervention is the plaster. And it’s not the plaster, it’s how that class is being used. So if you’re seeing all these things around wellness washing in the talking about particular interventions, approach with caution friends, it’s actually more about how that intervention has been applied to the business and how its impact has been measured. Yeah,

Al Elliott  9:05  
that makes perfect sense. So it’s, I mean, it does seem a little of a shortcut as well. So you go, all right, we need to do some wellbeing. Let’s just pick from a hat, oh, we’re gonna do a team day. And but then also at the same time firing people for for wanting to work from home or just, you know, denying, denying help with anything,

Leanne Elliott  9:23  
indeed. Okay, so

Al Elliott  9:24  
what else you’ve seen there?

Leanne Elliott  9:26  
Well, speaking of this disconnect, perhaps is dishonest. Starbucks has been in the news quite a bit recently. So yeah, in my back to this return to the office Monday, Howard Schultz, CEO of Starbucks, who we have we have loved and picked up in the past, but he is currently asking his white collar staff to return to the office for three days a week. This seems to be the magic number, three days a week. So yeah, and there’s also been lots of talk as well about about kind of their their baristas and how their frontline staff are being treated in terms of unions that pay excetera so you A BIT bit a bit of unhappy people in Starbucks at the minute. So they wrote a letter, they wrote an open letter protesting the company’s return to Office mandate. And it’s alleged union busting, opening a new, a new battle really over it. And I’ve got quite I’ve got the electorate, which I think kind of sums it up quite nicely, in a way that that is not just staff slagging off Starbucks, like there were the hurt. There’s the psychological contract of this promise has been broken between us. So yeah, this is this is an extract from the employee, open letter. We love Starbucks. But these actions are fracturing trust in Starbucks leadership. Morale is at an all time low. And the brand reputation and financial value of this publicly traded company are at risk. That’s what happens when a psychological understanding as an employer and employee and when that isn’t fulfilled in the way you expect. We don’t like it shootings used shootings used together talking about you know, they’re not listening. And I think again, it’s this consistency in this incongruence that drives us nuts. You know, they said, We believe in Starbucks, we believe in its core values, and we call for a return to those values. Currently, now, I have no public response from leadership team at Starbucks, but we’ll keep you posted.

Al Elliott  11:14  
I also like that you call them barristers, rather than baristas. did. I call them barristers. So I’m just wondering, the main the main difference is that is that baristas make coffee and barristers make bank. What else you got? Leah,

Leanne Elliott  11:28  
I have some research for you. The Harvard study of adult development is an 85 year run running longitudinal study at 724 participants. And now also their spouses and children have been brought into the fold. And that’s all aimed at discovering what makes people happy in life. So yeah, a barrack 2003. There’s a really famous TEDx talk with Dr. Robert waldinger, where he kind of talks about the kind of most important takeaways they’re seeing. And it’s not about wealth. It’s not about fame. It’s not about working harder and harder. The key findings from the study is that good relationships keep us happier and healthier, period.

Al Elliott  12:12  
And it makes sense. I mean, there’s that really famous article from the the, the dying wishes or the wishes of the dying or something like that. And it’s they they surveyed a lot of people who are in hospice at the end of life care. And they said, What are your biggest regrets? And that was the main ones where I spent too much time at the office. And I didn’t keep up with friends, who are lost contact with friends, and you know, those relations. Relationships. So yeah, I agree. I concur is what I’m saying?

Leanne Elliott  12:39  
Yeah, yeah. So the kind of the, the most recent kind of findings from the research that’s coming out as basically how people can, can do that can build these relationships. And they’re talking about the, the idea of social fitness. And so these are the practices that that people can do to build these really rich and fulfilling relationships, whether that’s friendships, whether it’s relationships, personally, romantically, or whether it’s within within our work. So yeah, that’s all in, in the new book, The Good Life, which we’ll leave a link to in the show notes.

Al Elliott  13:08  
Reminds me of that joke. What’s the least believable thing about the Bible that a man in his mid 30s has got 12? Close friends? I think that’s a little bit too, too close to the bone. There isn’t? Yeah, not genuinely interested in terms of my life, looking at my friends who might have gone to, and one of them sat here opposite me now. So what is meant by strong? We were acquainted with. That’s it, we know

Leanne Elliott  13:33  
each other. Yep. I thought that was quite a nice little that link into our coaching today as well, that is all about relationships, really, as we will find out. So in terms of the structure show today, we’re asking lots of questions that you might have about coaching and mentoring? What is the difference? Can anyone be a coach or mentor? Do you have to be a certain age or have experience of years under your belt to be a coach or mentor? If you want to engage a coach or mentor? What should you expect? How do you know if they’re qualified? How generic? They’re going to be any good? And yet, what is the future of coaching? Is technology going to play a more central role in coaching interventions in the future?

Al Elliott  14:12  
So let’s start with this basic, this perennial question of what is the difference between a coach and a mentor?

Leanne Elliott  14:17  
Yeah, so we’ve spoken in earlier episodes about how coaches, mentors and therapists all have a role to play in in psychological health and development. I think particularly in the burnout episodes we talked about, about that with well, so if you’re considering engaging one of these professionals, it’s important to understand the different ways they operate, the types of relationships that you build with them, and the different ways that they can help. So let’s start by defining mentoring. Here’s Julie,

Unknown Speaker  14:44  
I think a coach tends to be well, frankly, a coach is paid. And a mentor generally is not so a coach is really there to help you see things in yourself and help you grow, but it might have a much more linear goal, where mentoring we see tends to be just a more overall support of an individual on their wellbeing journey or whatever it is that they’re working towards how to help them grow to their potential.

Al Elliott  15:12  
So I see what Judy saying is that coaching tends to be paid and mentoring tends not to be paid. I remember I’ve had a couple of mentors in my life, and just just in case anyone has just arrived from them from from Venus, and it doesn’t know what a mentoring is. Essentially, mentoring is where someone who usually who has done the thing before you is helping you to achieve the same kind of goal. So for example, we had on a great guest from the eldercare Academy, Carrie. And the whole point of the elders Academy, I think, is that he was Easter the guy started it to remember his name, Chip Conley, Chip Conley. He was basically the mentors for the guys for Airbnb. So he built businesses before any mentor the guys for Airbnb, and then obviously got himself an equity stake, I think in them. But for you, Chip. Yeah. Nice, nice work of Lisa.

Leanne Elliott  15:57  
That’s mentoring. And then we also ask Lucy, and Sonya, what the difference is, Lucy introduces, I think, a really helpful way of thinking about it. It’s thinking of it as a continuum. And we’ll hear from from Sonya as well, that both coaches and mentors have an important role to play.

Unknown Speaker  16:15  
So here’s Lucy, do you think of a continuum of coaching through to mentoring where mentoring is you want somebody who is an expert in that field has been there can say, oh, go to this conference, do this, if you know, I’m going to mentor you in this. And coaching is much purer, I don’t know anything about your world, but I’m gonna ask great questions, I’m going to scaffold your thinking and bring models. And then it’s a sort of sliding scale. So for some people with a health goal, they will absolutely want a PT who can tell them what to eat, and what exercise to do. But for others, it might be much more of a psychological barrier with exercise, so that they know exactly what they should be doing. But there’s something else going on that is stopping them from eating, what they know is going to make them feel better in the exercise they could be doing. And that’s where knowledge can get in the way unless you’re a very experienced coach, and you’ve got that knowledge and you can park it. And I have first hand experience of this because I went into coaching from being a sickness and health and wellbeing coach. And so my first few clients naturally came to me for that, but they didn’t want PTM advice, they knew exactly what to do. There was other underlying stuff. And I found it so hard not to say oh, you know what, you should try it. I’ll tell you what, there’s a great sales class around the corner, or it was really hard for me now, I can do that now. But I do see that with other people that come in with expertise. It’s so hard to let go of it and be truly curious and then just apply some of the more psychological principles to understanding what’s the emotional undercurrent that’s going on here, because you’re so desperate to solve. Often, people that go into helping professions really want to solve you know, and so that’s, we call it the rescuer syndrome. It’s not a real syndrome. It’s just a nickname for people that want to help. And so that often comes in. So think of that continuum and anyone listening think well, do I really want to unpick what’s going on for me deep down? Or is this I actually just don’t really even know where to get started, I want someone to tell me what to do, or somewhere in between. And that’s your sort of difference between a coach and a mentor. And obviously, coaches can do both. But that’s something to think about.

Al Elliott  18:08  
And here’s sanyas version.

Unknown Speaker  18:10  
My version of that is I am very experienced leadership trainer. So I work with leadership teams, leadership individuals around the world, and really equip them to lead. But I’m also a leadership coach. Am I a mentor in leadership yet? So how do I decide we talk about the hats that you wear within a session, for example. So we’ll come back to the hats, if you want the definition between the two. There’s lots of lots of sort of knowledge around this, but the mentor, you would select a mentor, because you would have expected them to have done what you’ve done before. So for example, I may be a Senior Associate in a law firm, and I would like to pick a partner as a mentor, because I want to go into the partnership world. So I will absolutely don’t come to me or Matt, as a mentor, because I haven’t become a partner in a law firm. But you can work alongside so a lot of people have a coach and a mentor. So the mentor is there who’s going to really help them, inform them, give them the what they did what they didn’t do, they will probably give some advice, we hope they have some coaching skills in there, they may not. But there’s lots of different types of mentor out there. So it’s really great learning from someone who has been there before. So that is why you would choose them. Now the coach does not have to have been there before at all going back and actually listening in so I might say so AL It sounds to me like what I’m hearing is there’s a lot of frustration around that what has to happen to remove some of that for you. I don’t need to be a mentor. But I really need to get into what is going to stop you. So mentor has been there before has gone down that path I expect them to and I’ll ask them some quite detailed question about the professional what I’m trying to achieve If the coach is the expert in saying, brilliant, that’s where you want to go, you’re here now how am I going to help you to get there?

Unknown Speaker  20:08  
One is about putting in advice, the content. And one is about sort of pulling it out a good coach, like extract what you’ve already got in your head. So, Nancy Klein, who wrote time to think, who’s a very big sort of Guru in the area of coaching, so the head that contains the problem also contains a solution. And I think that’s a lovely thought. And so as a coach, you’re just trying to help pull that out. But as a mentor, you are sort of putting stuff in, you’re saying, Here’s some information, here’s some advice. So that’s sort of shorthand, I suppose, for how you think about it. But there is absolutely that blended space in the middle. And I wanted to pick up on what Sonia said about, we really hope mentors use coaching skills. Rather than using it, I’ve heard lots of stories of mentors kind of using it as the showcase. So look, what I’ve done on my great is it, it becomes very much about them, being able to sort of say, look, what I’ve done, you can follow my past actually really good mentors, do a little bit of putting in, but they also do a lot of pulling out and use coaching skills. So we do have people that are professional mentors, coming to ride the wave and building their coaching skills to make them better mentors.

Al Elliott  21:06  
I read somewhere that, that the sort of coaching and mentoring analogy is that a mentor comes from the Greek word, I’m not clever enough to know exactly what the etymology is. But it comes from the Greek word, which is sort of like mythical creature, someone who’s there to guide you towards a particular thing. Whereas a coach, if you think about a Coach and Horses, then the coach be the person sitting on top, like kind of whipping the horses, or he can’t with horses these days, I’m sure. But the person who’s driving the whole sort of like show forward, and I’m not sure if that actually helps or muddies the water. But I think what Lucy and Sonia did was a great explanation of the difference between the two.

Leanne Elliott  21:39  
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, the little nuances in in different ways, coaches and mentors operate really helpful. And of course, you know, opening ourselves up to this type of support to show the vulnerability that’s needed to learn and develop. And in some cases, heal is a very personal journey. This episode is not intended to have an opinion on which is better mentoring, coaching or therapy, it’s up to you, you know, to which one you think is gonna serve Yujin and gain some insights, her own personal experience Syrians,

Unknown Speaker  22:09  
I’ve tried a lot of mental health struggles over the years, I’ve struggled to build good habits, I’d had some health struggles as well. And I’m not lying when I say that coaching actually helped me across all of these, like nothing else helped me like apps didn’t help me. Speaking to a therapist didn’t actually help me that much, unfortunately, they do amazing work. But in my case, it didn’t help. What I loved about coaching was that it was very forward looking, it wasn’t necessarily just about dealing with your past or dealing with issues, it was very forward looking. And it wasn’t the coach giving me advice, or just sitting there and passively listening to me. They they gave me agency, almost, they almost gave me permission to figure out my solution. And that was incredibly valuable for me. So that meant that I understood that the process of change isn’t linear, you take steps back, you, you know, did like you might be doing really well. And then suddenly, you’ve gone back to your old habits and your old patterns, but that’s okay, that’s part of the change process. So having someone there in my corner, helping me through the ups and downs of change, helping me navigate complex health systems, so I could have all over the world was so helpful in many areas of my life. And that’s how so there was that aha moment of, I get why coaching is so helpful for behaviour change, I get it. And I want to help this. I want to do something in this industry. And I saw the gap there that I could feel I felt like I was removed a combination of skills that I had to feel and that’s why I’m so passionate about

Al Elliott  24:03  
it. I really like this idea that coaches don’t give advice. i This is my personal like personal experience of mentoring and coaching. So and this is not the proper definition, but I kind of expect a coach not to give me advice, but to help me to achieve something I’d expect a mentor to give me advice, because I’d expect the mentors have been there before. I mean, how far away from I’ve I just ruined the whole idea of coaching versus mentoring them?

Leanne Elliott  24:26  
I agree. I agree. I think coaching isn’t really isn’t about giving advice. I think you might offer suggestions, or ideally is as poor when said you’re trying to empower the other person to give them permission to come up with their own solution. And that’s what what coaching is it’s about enablement. So yeah, I’m with you. I think advice giving is a key difference, perhaps between coaching and mentoring.

Al Elliott  24:46  
Definitely. So we asked Julie, about the whole idea of the image of mentoring because Millennials Gen Zed, are they more or less inclined to look for mentors?

Unknown Speaker  24:55  
I think that they feel that the term is very old school, I think everybody has this vision of a mentor. I know I did when I first started having these conversations is like this, you know, okay, frankly, big white man behind the desk, you know, shaking the finger telling you what to do and how to do it. So I think part of our work with OG mentors is getting beyond the word mentoring and actually really talking about is OG mentoring and talking about it as a way to really help benefit each other. So I think Gen Z needs that direction, and they need that help. But I think they need to think about it in a different way. Because the old model doesn’t necessarily work for them the same way, the old model for a lot of things doesn’t necessarily work for them. I mean, especially in the corporate environment, being really mindful of your audience. I think the old model was, you know, leadership says, we’re having a problem with retention, HR, get HR on the phone, we need a mentoring programme, okay, you know, let’s just kind of smash people together, you’re a woman, you’re a woman, great, go mentor each other, you’re black, you’re black, great, go mentor each other. And there’s not a lot of support around tools, principles. Content are really ways, because what we know is that you have to be able to connect really authentically, to be able to have a good more mentoring relationship. So the old model is very based on outcomes and function, where the new model is really based on a deeper connection in these relationships, where you’re able to really get to know yourself first. And you’re really able to be able to get to know someone else to be able to support each other in a very genuine way. So I think the old model of just like smashing people together, sending them off to the sunset, good luck, hope it goes well hope this increases retention, check the box, we have a mentoring programme, versus really helping employees to connect more authentically. And we see that as you know, what we really call OG mentoring is this next evolution of mentoring.

Leanne Elliott  26:58  
Going back to the idea of mentoring and coaching on a continuum, I think what Julie’s saying there is that mentoring, the old school mentor was a really, really far, far to the left, and it is kind of going a little bit, a little bit for the centre with the view of that it’s about this authentic connection, these relationships, I think this is maybe a similarity that we’re seeing with with coaching and mentoring. Julie also mentioned the importance of empathy. So empathy is created through empathic listening or active listening. It’s that practice of being attentive and responsive to others during the conversation, which might sound simple. But how many people do you talk to that you’re like, I know you’re just waiting for me to stop talking. So you can say what you wanted to say. Because it really is kind of a being that person that will hold that space will listen empathically will find that connection will find similarities with, you know, between their experience in your own and, and really give that heartfelt response or that more appropriate feedback given on on what you’ve said, it builds mutual understanding, it builds mutual respect. And it really is about this kind of balance in the relationship between the speaker and the listener, or in this case between the mentor and mentee or coach and coachee.

Al Elliott  28:07  
Yeah, I think you said one of the best things that you mean, you’re already an fantastic listener. But you said some of the feedback from yourself. And some of the other people on the course you were doing with Sonya Lucy was that they were teaching you how to just shut up and listen. Like they do mention something called a Magic Minute, where it’s just the person will stops talking and you don’t say anything. And that often can lead to, to other people to them, just expanding on what they were going to say. So let’s have a little listen to Sonya, as she talks about the importance of listening in coaching.

Unknown Speaker  28:32  
We would we often say we ask people to sort of thing Wait, wait, ask yourself, Why am I talking? Is it that the time should be used useful me in passing information or knowledge or, or helping them? Or should I be listening to what’s going on. So the balance absolutely should be they should be doing most of the talking. And we like to be navigating and guide and help them through. One of the biggest, most important things that we notice in coaching in terms of balancing the questioning and listening is the power of the pause. So the power of the pause, I ask you a question and I wait. And I wait. And I let you think. And I get comfortable with that silence. And then I might just say, oh, what else? And then you might say what you really want to say now if I’m so busy chatting away to you, and conversing with you, I’ll never hear what you really wanted to say. So that’s something we notice a lot and help our, our people with.

Leanne Elliott  29:31  
I was reading a case study on this. And it was kind of kind of an add on to that technique, which is so powerful. It’s funny just mentioned there. But particularly you have a coachee who’s getting quite emotional as they’re thinking about this question. Is the coach saying something like, I don’t want to disturb the moment you’re having here. But can I ask you what it is that you’re experiencing here? Oh, that’s good. Yeah. And it’s just things like coaching questions like that, that just give me goosebumps because it just uh allows you, as pointed before it gives you permission to really be that vulnerable and to really kind of think about those, those solutions. So yeah, great advice from sunny there.

Al Elliott  30:09  
And if you’re listening and you’re in sales, listen up, do do what the what we just talked about there, because that is one of the best things you can do at a sales environment is when someone you describe someone to describe what their situation is at this point in time, and you go and just shut up because they expect you in a sales position to come back and go, Oh, well, I think can help you with this. And I’ll bet you will do all this. No, don’t do that. Just listen and leave that magic moment. Julie also believes that listening plays a central role in mentoring.

Unknown Speaker  30:38  
The biggest mentorship killer is not listening to the person who’s coming into you. And conversely, I guess it’s not sharing authentically, right? If somebody’s not actually sharing what’s really going on, then that person can’t listen. But but that’s the key piece is being able to really share authentically and being able to listen to each other.

Al Elliott  31:00  
So so far, we’ve had one difference between coaching and mentoring, that is advice that mentors give advice. And coaches don’t necessarily, and to similarities in that you need to have a great relationship, and you need to be good at listening and have empathy. So what else? I was curious about this? Can someone who’s 19 be a mentor? Can they be a coach? So we asked Julie, can you be a mentor? And if you haven’t got grey hair?

Unknown Speaker  31:23  
Yeah, I think the key thing is really about the vision, right is what is the vision of the 22 year old or the 25 year old? What is the vision? You know, what are they working towards? What do they care about? What is what is important to them? And how are they trying to grow to their potential. So if a 25 year old, has three years more experience, and can help guide can help coach can help the you know, the mentee kind of think more deeply about themselves than great. So I think it’s really more about the outcome, and a little bit more about the goal versus the age between each other. But with any relationship, both people have to want to be there. So I guess that’s really a key piece, right? Does the 25 year old really want to mentor the 22 year old and does a 22 year old want to be mentored by a 25 year old and if they’re both engaged in it, then what we really believe in with augmenter is is setting up setting them up for success and giving them an opportunity to really get to know themselves better to get to know each other better. So I think it has no age. And I think you can learn just as much from somebody who’s appear, as you could somebody who’s who has more, you know, decades more experience than you.

Leanne Elliott  32:33  
So know, Julie’s saying you don’t have to be a particular age or older to be a mentor. But what about coaching? Can you be a coach in your early 20s? Here’s Lucy,

Unknown Speaker  32:45  
oh, I’m really passionate about this. Absolutely. It’s all about perspective. And one of our values at right away is celebrating diversity. And we talk a lot about diversity in every way. And age is absolutely one of those because so many coaches have been seen to be sort of over 40 and have big executive careers. And it feels like a industry that maybe is not for you or not achievable for everybody to get a coach and ride the wave. We encourage lots of younger people to come and train with us. Our youngest, I think, is 22. And actually she was utterly fabulous. So I got coaching from her as part of the training because Sonia and I always join in and, and take part in the coaching. And it’s the perspective that younger people have and just different eyes, and coaching. And I know we’re going to get into this a bit later. It is so different from mentoring, you don’t need to have had the experience to be there is one of the reasons I call my practice cheerleading because coaching certainly from a sports angle comes with Well, if you’re gonna be a football coach, you have to know about football. But actually to be an executive coach, a professional coach or personal coach. It’s very much about saying detach to Sonia said, and how much easier is it to detach? If you’ve not had that experience? And you can remain genuinely curious, ask great questions. And you really have to listen, you’re not gonna make any assumptions. Because oh my goodness, you don’t know what it’s like to be lead a big team of people or be a parent at 22. So you will potentially ask better questions or offer a whole fresh new perspective without getting caught up in the story and bringing your own baggage.

Leanne Elliott  34:19  
That’s what I liked about the Samaritans as well. They’re very much into diversity in terms of age, and it’s about your ability to listen and hold a space. I was 19 when I became a Samaritan. So yeah, ages, age is not always a factor and particularly not in the field of coaching. And yeah, Sonya agrees. She points out that younger coaches may experience some challenges, but the value that they have to offer is inspiring.

Unknown Speaker  34:43  
So there are different challenges. So totally agree with what Louise is saying about the ability to coach is absolutely not age dependent. However, yes, when it comes to marketing and setting up a business and finding your clients, there are just different challenges. There are different things. So for example, It used to be. So my wonderful ex colleague who is now retired, he was saying it’s brilliant, more grey hair I get the better in this industry, the more credibility I have. And that used to be the case, because executive coaching was very much seen as we want the wise sort of older person who’s been there. However, it’d be wrong to dismiss the fact that there are some credibility issues in terms of certain clients, appointing certain coaches. So the key thing, as Lucy mentioned, is there are many different types of coaching, and knowing your niche and knowing what you can offer. But I think that’s a whole different topic, in terms of marketing and commercials, is different in terms of ability to coach everything Lucy said, and this sort of, when we come to that mentoring, the reverse mentoring is exceptionally powerful. And what I love is a lot of people I coach really struggling with managing and leading younger people. And they keep using what I call a lot of stereotyping. And they all think that the whole generation are doing this or not doing this, it isn’t true. And so therefore, to work with the younger coach, I think could be very inspiring, and perspective broadening.

Al Elliott  36:10  
So there we go. That sums that up. I think what a warning that a non technical person is about to try and use a technical phrase. That’s me. So I think what we what we are talking about here is transactional and transformational coaching. So Leanne, please correct me, but it feels like we can make a case that mentoring is more transactional, as in there is a transaction I want to get from A to B. But maybe coaching is more transformational. You need to make a trance transformation.

Leanne Elliott  36:40  
Yeah, I think it’s a broad generalisation. And that’s what we’re going to have to do here. We’re talking about kind of the broad differences between mentoring and coaching. Yeah, I think I think that that is a is a good, good way of looking at the difference. Not to say the coaches can’t also be transactional. So for example, if you talking about like maybe interview coaching, that’s can be much more transactional, than, you know, talking about, you know, as Lucy said, the psychological changes that might need to happen for you to embrace exercise that is more transformational. So yeah, let’s, let’s hear a bit more on that from, from our experts. Let’s go to Sonya, first on the difference between transactional and transformational coaching.

Unknown Speaker  37:16  
There are two different sort of types of coaching here, there’s transactional coaching. So I would like to become better at presenting might be a topic someone brings to coaching, it’s what we call transactional coaching. So the need for vulnerability isn’t there. So I think we need to be careful, we don’t have our poor list of this thing, you have to be vulnerable to come to coaching. Because there’s a lot of very transactional coaching that takes space, which really only needs a lightweight touch in the relationship, and sort of relatively simplistic surface level coaching. Brilliant. So that is a lot of coaching. Now, there is also the very fertile ground of transformational coaching, which is that double loop learning, which is absolutely your point about saying, I really need to go back, I’ve tried X, I haven’t got the result I need, I keep changing x, but I’m still not getting the result I need, we may need to dig deeper. What are the assumptions, the beliefs, the mindset that you have about this? That is actually your identity, the really rich part that is stopping you. Going back to what Lucy was talking about weight loss, nutrition, exercise, rarely, rarely is it simply at transactional level, which is why we’ve got a trillion billion pound I think that’s word trillion billion make it happen in industry of well being. And it’s and it’s still one of the fastest growing because we’re not dealing with core belief, your identity, what is really happening there. So really, that’s where you need coaches who are trained to that superior level, by that we talk about the advanced level, which our programme is, they are capable, they have activity, they are able to guide you through belief review, belief challenge, and rewriting a belief, different to counselling. That’s a whole different topic, counselling versus coaching. But the core belief fit is really important. So yes, you need you need a skilled coach to do that. And certainly everyone who’s been on our programme is absolutely quick to start working with your recovery.

Al Elliott  39:22  
So let’s hear Lucy’s thoughts on this. I was

Unknown Speaker  39:25  
going to quote our lovely colleague, Michael, who’s our accreditation lifeguard, right, the way he taught me I just run a programme with him and he, he always said, if you’re not fear, doubt or insecurity, you’re not really there. You’ve got to keep digging until you get down to the fear, doubt or insecurity. I guess the caveat I put there is such a great point. I’ve been very much into that sort of transformational coaching. Now I’m thinking about my own coaching that I have with my Coach and the coaching idea, but sometimes, right there’s absolutely that more transactional coaching where you don’t need to get spent out of insecurity just need to help somebody do a good presentation will deliver a report at the end of the week. But really when you’re getting to the juicy stuff like if you’re not We see this with new coaches a lot, they will do that. Okay? And when do you think you can do that by and have you let’s help you get a plan in place and it’s all about like get get under it rip the surface off this peel the layers of the onion back there are many metaphors there, as Mike would say, get to the fear, the doubt or the insecurity. And so that’s sort of tongue in cheek that you said about sort of paid late or lose weight does come into, you know, we talked about monkeys, and we haven’t explicitly mentioned the Chimp Paradox. But of course, the chimp, Dr. Steve Peters, it the chimp basically wants to be fed, and stay alive and have sex. They are the core human drives. So there’s so much truth in that tongue in cheek isn’t areas that we need money to survive and have a roof over our head meet our needs. It’s all about meeting our, our needs. So yes, I’ve now forgotten your original question of asking for four things. But I felt like that fear, doubt or insecurity is something you’re really fond of that more transformational coaching, looking for?

Leanne Elliott  40:53  
Thinking back to what Julie said before as well, as you know, she said that the you know, the main difference between coaches and mentors is that the coaches are paid and mentors on so have mentors typically aren’t paid. We have to ask why bother being a mentor? Is it just altruism

Unknown Speaker  41:09  
we see as mentors, both Jimmy and myself, are, you know, sort of Gen Z, younger mentees that are coming to us and asking us for questions and our relationship we’re able to, you know, if you’re, if you’re thinking your outcome is actually learning a new skill, wow, we learn a lot. We learn a lot about tick tock, we learn a lot about how the evolution of Gen Z’s perspective on social justice on issues related to diversity, equity inclusion, you know, we learned so much from our mentees, that we can bring into our work because we’re not Gen Z. I won’t say which Gen. I am, but it’s definitely not date. So so that’s a benefit for us. So I think you get two things, one out of your experience, you get this feeling of feeling really great. And being able to have these relationships. And then if you’re working in the professional environment, oftentimes you’re learning new skills and a perspective that you can bring into your work, especially if you’re, you know, a consumer marketing or anything like that everybody’s looking, you know, thinking about what younger consumers care about,

Leanne Elliott  42:10  
feel like the transfer of value is pretty clear with with coaching coaches, you know, get paid, although not always we do have pro bono coaching in certain certain areas in situations. But the point is, the coach is getting the full value add, whereas mentorship sounds a bit more like a mutual exchange of this value. And I guess we you know, we’ve heard that in in corporate as well like pairing a boomer with a millennial, for example, in kind of a mutual mentoring relationship. And I think as well as also seems to inform how mentoring and coaching is embedded within an organisation. You know, there’s mentoring is about helping others supporting peers and managers, you know, contributing to onboarding of new employees, perhaps, but it seems rooted in this more direct transfer of knowledge and experience. And as Julie explains, the new era of mentoring is moving away from the leader, necessarily being the mentor, and rather mentoring being the responsibility of everyone in the organisation.

Unknown Speaker  43:02  
I think that’s a great question. Because obviously, as you know, as a leader, you cannot do that. But I think really delegating to, to, you know, continue to delegate all the way through the organisation, that it becomes the responsibility of everybody in the organisation. And again, what we talked about augmenting is not just about mentor, mentee, I’m seeing your your junior, I know you don’t, you know, pairing people up to be able to really, you know, connect with each other and help each other grow to their potential, how do they both continue to grow? So I think making sure that mentoring is the responsibility of everybody in the organisation. It’s just part of the culture. It’s just part of what you do. And again, making sure that that priority is set and people are setting time up for it. But I have to be honest, it’s easier said than done. Because even though I obviously care deeply about mentoring, I run a mentoring podcast. I talk a lot about mentoring, you know, we are a busy bunch of BS already well, global, and it is hard for us to make time for it as well. But we do try to really create the culture of caring deeply about each other and helping each other grow to our potential.

Leanne Elliott  44:09  
It could also be argued that we’re actually seeing the opposite when it comes to coaching in, in the organisation, in terms of, of you know, the idea of leader as coach is become much more more common in organisational psychology and business and for good reason. I was reading some research by Gallup that estimates the cost of poor management and their related productivity costs in the US alone cost between 980,000,000,001 point 2 trillion per year and globally that’s thought to be about 7 trillion. That’s numbers I can’t even understand.

Al Elliott  44:44  
Now there was there was some waiting on I saw on YouTube saying that, a million seconds is 30 million seconds is 32 minutes. A billion seconds is 32 years and a trillion seconds is like 32,000 years or something like that. It was it was incredible. So yes, and it’s more money than that. I think honestly, in my lifetime,

Leanne Elliott  45:02  
it’s quite, it’s quite a lot. It’s quite a lot. So I think you know what, what’s interesting is that there’s this this leader as coaches come around, because there’s many elements of coaching that can translate into really effective leadership. I mean, goal setting, for example, you know, often coaches will work with their coachee, to set goals and monitor them to evaluate them. And that all drives their personal development, if we apply that to performance development. In a work setting, research has shown that employees who managers involve them in the goal setting so the employees are involved in that process of setting their own performance goals, they’re four times more likely to be engaged employees, which we know as massive problem in the world at the minute with quiet quitting, yet only 30% of employees actually experience this process of setting goals in in partnership with their managers.

Al Elliott  45:56  
So what’s interesting about Paul, when the lady who’s who’s introducing the coaching platform that is augmented by AI, is that she’s had lots of experience in some quite cool companies. So she worked at Canva. Before this, and the culture of Canva was quite interesting. They were definitely coaching lead

Unknown Speaker  46:13  
thing earlier, that’s where I got introduced to coaching. So it can be, there’s an internal coaching team who support everyone who is interested in receiving coaching. So they are professional coaches, from various backgrounds, but they’re embedded within the company, and they help the teams. I believe Atlassian has coaching as well, when I was there, I don’t know if it was as prevalent, but I believe they do have that now. And it might be aimed more at people in leadership positions, more exact coaching, type of coaching rather than available to everybody who wants it. The one difference there was at Canberra managers are referred to as coaches and are encouraged to use, quote, coaching principles in management, which I thought was really great because it shifts the responsibility or it shifts the lens through which you view management from being something that is I’m just keeping track of whether people are performing and getting things done to one where you’re really invested in the person’s growth, and you’re really wanting to deliver that personalised growth experience to each of your team members. So that that shift was really, really cool and nice in Canada.

Al Elliott  47:31  
So far, we’ve also worked at Atlassian. Before that is our experience at Atlassian.

Unknown Speaker  47:35  
Well, I don’t know, Scott and Mike that well, I’ve met them I’ve like had chats with them, but I don’t know them very well. But the first thing I’ll say is that they are so down to earth, they have no protections at all, they are so approachable. So there was no reason for anyone to have feelings about the fact that, you know, my kids, Scott are overnight. They’re billionaires, or, I mean, they’ve been billionaires for a while there was very little of that, none of that, that I noticed, and certainly nothing from my side at all, because of the fact that they are so friendly, so approachable. But more than that, they are incredibly smart people who are also humble, and that’s quite rare. And I loved. I loved the fact that they were like that. And in terms of people and culture, the difference. And yeah, going back to the point of an IPO, I believe I’m not sure if I’m exactly right. But I believe that Scott and Mike together had over 60% of the company, which is quite unusual. Generally, for venture backed companies at IPO time, it’s quite unusual for the founders to have that much equity. To be totally honest, there’s very little difference between Atlassian and Canva. In terms of culture, culture, there are some differences. But both companies were incredibly fun to work at they had as much as possible a flat hierarchy. So you could approach anyone and speak to anyone about anything that you had. There was small differences in how efficient people were in getting things moving, then I think that’s more to do with the size of the companies rather than anything else.

Leanne Elliott  49:20  
Pooling really showcasing their how coaching is becoming part of our leadership practices and the impact of that about 40 billion, didn’t it? So not bad?

Al Elliott  49:28  
It’s more like 80 billion, was it? Oh, well, then

Leanne Elliott  49:30  
there you go. So now we’ve talked about what mentoring coaching is the differences between them and the similarities? How can you find a mentor or a coach, we asked Julie, what’s the best and perhaps worst way to find a mentor?

Unknown Speaker  49:44  
This is such a great question. So as part of Og mentors, we have eight principles and one is search and we really believe really doing a deep dive search on somebody that you would like to be your mentor, which actually really starts the first part Trouble, which is vision, what do you want to accomplish if you just reach out to somebody and see that they have really successful and make a lot of money, and that’s what you want, and you just reach out to them. That’s quite the you know that vision can be quite shallow. So really setting your vision, knowing what you want to get out of a mentoring relationship, doing the real search, who is the right person, and then do your homework? What do they care about? What are they posting on LinkedIn? What can you bring to the relationship so that when you do approach them, it’s from a position of respect of mutual admiration, and hopefully creating a mutually beneficial relationship, because our belief is that all odd mentoring relationships benefit both the mentor and the mentee, and they create this evolution, this evolution of the relationship. So just reaching out cold, hey, you’re super successful, will you be my mentor, that’s not gonna get you anywhere.

Leanne Elliott  50:50  
So more advice and information on mentoring will leave Julie’s contact details in the show notes so you can get in touch. So we talk a lot about the value of coaching or in the podcast, and particularly the value it can offer for leaders to be coached. But as we know, finding the right coach is really important to the success of that coaching relationship. So we asked Sonya and Lucy, what’s the best way to find a coach,

Unknown Speaker  51:13  
it’s very tempting our human nature is to want to be around people that are similar to us often, maybe a look or sound like house or have similar backgrounds. And actually, for a lot of people, if you look at your friendship groups, they tend to be quite similar people to you. So I think you want to go the opposite of that. And she’s someone you wouldn’t necessarily be friends with. Even somebody you don’t like, is quite good. Somebody that you can be vulnerable with those, they’re not somebody you feel like you need to impress. So I think the ability to be vulnerable with this person that they will make you feel safe, and you don’t feel like oh, I kind of want to impress them a bit or show off in any way is bad, because you need to absolutely let your guard down to get the very best out of coaching. You know, somebody, somebody that is going to challenge your way of thinking that maybe makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable. I always say to our coaches in training at the end, when they reflect and we go in and do our observed reflections. I say how did you feel when you’re doing that coaching session? And if they say yes, good, yes, that’s really good. It’s quite comfortable like this. That’s not okay. You need to feel uncomfortable as a coach actually all of the time. And I challenge myself. Am I getting a bit too cosy with this person to actually really like this person? It’s becoming a bit more of a chat, or am I constantly pushing when necessary, and asking questions that are difficult, I’m going to make that person uncomfortable. And it’s not something we do in normal conversations generally, is to make people feel uncomfortable. And so I think you want to make sure you’ve got a coach that has got those strong boundaries can hold you safely, but can absolutely give you what they call the loving boot. So it’s done with empathy and compassion and kindness. But it’s tough. Like you’re not gonna like this. So I sometimes call myself like a Harley Quinn type cheerleader, like I’m gonna be there for you, but might bite her along the way is there’s not going to be a cosy, cosy cup of tea, kind of chat, it’s going to be difficult, I’m going to make you work hard. So I think that’s, that’s certainly what I’m looking for in a coach. But equally, I think when you when you decide you need a coach, really think about what it what it is you want, and what you’re going through. At that time, because we’re having a really difficult time emotionally, maybe you don’t want somebody who’s gonna be absolutely kick ass the whole time, you need somebody who’s going to offer a little bit more compassion and, and support along the way. And now

Unknown Speaker  53:18  
I think that’s why they come to us around the way because we’d got probably the might most or certainly one of the most diverse community of coaches. So we have a lot of people come to us, and we talk to them when we listen. And then we say, Well, look, we’ve got such a range of coaches here. And we have a chat with these two, there’ll be very different, but they might be probably someone you won’t find out in the marketplace easily. Because it is difficult to find the right coach, it is hard, you don’t know what you’re choosing. So we have what we call a chemistry call. And we strongly encourage that. So you might we would, for example, be this sort of helper in helping shortlist get people to say, don’t have a little chat with them, we suggest 30 Minute Chemistry call and see. Because as you said, we do want challenge to be there, but we need you to feel comfortable, and the relationship does matter. So it does matter that you feel safe with that person, and that you feel understood. And then you might go into that sort of challenge and the vulnerability piece, but the initial bit means higher support and safety with the coach.

Al Elliott  54:20  
One of the downsides of coaching is that anyone can say I’m a coach, and say so you say right and I’ve set myself up as a coach whereas if you go someone like ride the wave there are other other organisations but ride the waves are favourite, and then they’re going to find you an accredited coach as someone who’s actually gone through the process. So I asked you this, can anyone become a coach?

Unknown Speaker  54:40  
Yes, they can. So it’s totally unregulated. And anyone can of course say they’re a coach. The first thing I ever do is I go immediately to look at wherever you trained. Number one were trained. It’s just like you can’t be a coach, unless you’ve been trained. So what am what was the quality of the training? And then for me, there is is linked to the quality of the training. So which body which professional body? Or have sort of authenticated that training? Where’s the quality stamp? So was it accredited training? And then did you go further and as particularly if you are an external coach, and this is where it’s really important, and people are buying your services, are you individually accredited, to show you really have taken your profession seriously, you really have committed to supervision, which is really important. You’ve committed to continuous professional development, self reflection, you’re with the body of people, when you keep growing, I think about a coach’s role. It’s not stagnant, it has to develop it has to evolve, because we’re operating in a changing world. So for me, unless you show an evidence that you are not doing what you were doing year ago, two years ago, three years ago,

Leanne Elliott  55:48  
Paul in also has a view on this. And for her, she finds the fact that coaching isn’t highly regulated, is actually one of the things that makes coaching so special,

Unknown Speaker  55:56  
I love that coaching is not so regulated, because because of that fact that if something works for you, that’s amazing. And it works for you, who cares, whether it’s objectively correct or not. And also, we know for a fact that scientific literature and research often is not necessarily keeping up with the realities of modern life and the realities of how our brains work and how we think, and how we adapt. So in that sense, I’d like that coaching isn’t hugely regulated. But I also see the problem of as an industry grows and grows and grows, and it is growing, it’s one of the fastest growing industries in the world, I can see how it can cause harm when if it is applied in a way that is not well thought out, or is ignorant, even so I do see the dangers of that. So it’s tricky, like, like with anything I, I have this theory that life is all about balance. And I believe it’s the case here as well, where it’s about finding that balance where it’s okay to experiment. It’s okay to be out there. It’s okay to be crazy and esoteric, if it works for you. It’s great. But what

Leanne Elliott  57:13  
happens if even after all the due diligence, you pick the wrong coach, here’s Lucy.

Unknown Speaker  57:18  
So if you’ve chosen to work with somebody, you’re a couple of sessions in and you’re thinking this doesn’t work? I always say to people, you know, definitely feed that back to your coach, you know, definitely say like, I’m not quite sure this is working, can we can we change it up a little bit and have a very open and honest dialogue. Because actually, if you’re with a coach to go back to our earlier point that’s well trained and accredited, they will be in supervision, they will take that to supervision and they’ll reflect on it their lives on the work on themselves. So they shouldn’t get defensive. If they start getting defensive and blaming you and saying, Oh, well, you tell up late and you’re not very good Kochi, you immediately know you’re in the wrong hands. A good coach will say, okay, okay, that’s interesting. Tell me more about that. When do you sense that? Yeah, have you sent this with anybody else, they’ll start coaching you on that very topic that you said, I’m not feeling this. So definitely feed it back. Because it may just be a simple thing that’s easier to come unstuck with maybe that they said something which absolutely hits to into your core beliefs, that is against your core beliefs, they may have dropped something in which is, you know, totally misogynistic, or something where you think I, you know, and in which case, it’s okay to break off that coaching relationship, as as a paying client and say, You know what, this, this isn’t working for me, I’ve got enough from it. And you don’t have to tell them exactly why if you don’t feel comfortable, but in the spirit of honesty and feedback, you know, you can say, look, there’s a couple of things here that don’t work for me. And hopefully, as a good coach will reflect and they may learn from that. And they can go and find another cage. But I think you have to trust your your instinct of can you remain being vulnerable and comfortable and feel really held in that space. And you’ll know when you’re in that space, if you feel like that. So we’ve looked at

Al Elliott  58:49  
how you find a coach, we’ve looked at what happens if you think you’ve picked the wrong coach, let’s go a little bit more into pull wins world where she thinks and as I do, that AI in tech can massively improve the way that coaches actually administer the coaching. So I asked her a bit more about where she came up with this idea. Looking at

Unknown Speaker  59:09  
the kind of tools that coaches are often using, which was pen and paper, a patchwork of different tools to deliver that process of coaching, I was really inspired to start building something that could be the tool that they use in their day to day. So it’s not like we don’t want to build an admin tools or a marketplace for coaches. But we really want to build a tool that they can live in, so to speak and deliver their culture, whatever form of coaching that might be. So it’s a very fuzzy problem. And as an engineer with the you know, that engineering thinking it’s very complex and very intricate problems. So I find it very interesting and very exciting to work on.

Al Elliott  59:48  
So I find this really interesting because I’m a really big AI geek. So I asked Paul, when do you think that AI could potentially replace coaching in the future?

Unknown Speaker  59:54  
Yeah, I think it could potentially replace AI in some form could potentially replace some element of coaching. But going a bit deeper into what a coaching session generally looks like, there is a lot of active listening in a coaching session on the part of the coach. They often they use silence as a way of encouraging their clients to think deeper and go deeper within themselves. And they employ different techniques like active listening, using silence and pauses and Socratic questioning, which is a bit like when I talk about it, it does sound a bit fuzzy. And it’s very qualitative. It’s very sort of textural. And I have yet to see AI chat GPT or Google spot or any other like aI tool, get to that level of sophistication in human connection and empathy. So I think there may be elements of coaching, like intervening in certain moments, perhaps that AI could start doing, but I think that that coaching session, to me is still a sacred space where AI will, for a while, I think, play a supporting role.

Leanne Elliott  1:01:11  
But you know, maybe pull in would say that, you know, given her mission of what she’s doing, get ready. So, you know, what do our coaches think is AI a threat? Here’s Lucy,

Unknown Speaker  1:01:21  
I think there’s definitely a role for technology and to allow this to happen at scale. I think people that are panicking, there’s a brilliant podcast, actually, by the Association for coaching on technology and AI and coaching. People that are panicking about oh, it’s going to take our jobs, it’s absolutely not, but it is going to help us reach more people at scale and some of this transactional coaching. And actually, Sonia, and I actually do this with this 10 Question activity that I mentioned, we have 10 questions, and we read them out to the group. When we work with groups, without them answering, they just write down their answers. So that’s absolutely you could just programme that in. And that is that is a chatbot asking question. And people always come out at the end of that we say, How confident do you feel about moving forward on a scale of one to 10, about taking the next action. And we did one yesterday with a group and most people have been for eight, nine or 10, in terms of they spent 10 minutes answering questions on their own, and we were effectively reading it out like a chatbot. So I think that transactional piece great, but there’s absolutely no doubt that the icing and the cherry and all the accoutrements go on the cake, when you put a human in there who can listen, and the mirror neurons that fire up, when you’re working with somebody and they endorphins that flow, when you’re in that conversation with a human, it cannot be replicated by technology of May, I

Unknown Speaker  1:02:37  
think it’s fantastic. I think it actually is about our whole values, which is accessibility. So you know, it is still very difficult to be able to access to coach across the world, because usually it takes money, we do a lot of work at ride the wave on pro bono coaching. So we do try and break down that with our social impact scholarships and the pro bono coaching we do. So we tried to break that down, but we’re talking about a tiny drop in a massive ocean. So the thought exactly as Lucy said that people can go and do some work on a much more cost effective way to solve a lot of everyday life problems would be amazing. We’d be delighted contribute to that in any way we can. We believe there are enough resources in the world, they’re just not in the right hands. So this is a lovely example of making it more widespread. But also, as Lucy said, that’s great. But we do know, there’s many, many things that we need to go away, that might be really useful. So as a coach, I’m thinking, we wonder if I say right, perhaps before we start to make good use of your time, perhaps gonna do a little bit of preparation using something AI wise to get your thinking, ready. Bring it to me, I’d love to know what did you What did you make of it? Where did it go? So I’m a scaffold, they’re thinking a little bit before they come in and deal with a human being. Human connection is massive. And we know that from the lockdowns that we’ve had it even if everything was made available to us, and we moved so swiftly to do a lot of that, didn’t we? But we still miss that human connection. And we wanted it so no threat. Absolutely brilliant, advanced. Very excited to see where it goes. Also slightly scary having just seen the film Megan. If you haven’t seen it, go and see it. But that’s a different topic. I don’t think coaches will be threatened by Meghan, she’s basically the new version of Chucky. If you remember that old film but anyway, exciting area of AI to explore.

Leanne Elliott  1:04:27  
I don’t think there’s any need to bring Chucky into this Sonya nightmares. Uh, ya know, and I was I was teasing you before Paul, when the more I hear about about Madeira and and, you know, its influence in the coaching space, the more I’m excited and, and as Daniel Lee said, they’re just the influence of technology, in general on coaching and maybe potentially mentoring and therapy. I think it’s really exciting. So let’s hear some more from Poland about the medical platform, its development and what she hopes will be its future legacy.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:58  
I should start by saying We are a one year old product. So very early in the in the journey of the product itself. And we’re launching a public beta next month. So the first, the first experience that a coach has is you can add your code CI, and you have this shared journal. So the shared journaling is kind of at the core of Mizzou, where you are both documenting your discussions. And that can be during the discussion, it can be outside of the discussion in between your sessions, or it can be at the end of a session, you make some time to document what you’ve discussed. So but the idea is that we want to recreate that share that safe space that you have with your coachee. It’s recreated in a tool. And that’s your shared journal. So that’s where you capture your coaching discussions, you can capture your goals, you can capture the different steps that you want to take towards those goals, as well as track progress. So now that there’s all this rich data in them, we can then visualise this in different ways. So we can show you how you’re tracking towards your goals. And then we can allow you to drill deeper, navigate your shared journal in different ways so that you understand things like, Oh, my mood is up and down when I talk about these things. Why is that so it allows you to introspect a bit more, it allows your coach and yourself to work together to understand what is going on better. And then of course, we have a mind map feature which is generated with the help of AI, which shows you the different themes of your conversations, how they’re evolving, how they’re connected to different things you’ve discussed, as well as how they’re connected to your goals and your progress. On top of all of this, for coaches, we have some special features, which include a place for you to create, create a system around your coaching. So if you’ve got certain tools, activities, or resources that you tend to use regularly in your coaching, you can collect all of them together in one place. And then you can choose to drip feed that to your coaches at appropriate times into that shared space. I would love for me to to be known for as the go to tool for anyone who is applying coaching principles to deliver coaching in any form. So that could be a coach that that could be an exact coach or a leadership coach working with sea level people. That could be a life coach working with someone who is going through a tough patch in their life. It could even be a therapist who is applying essentially coaching principles to help. Again, people deal with trauma or other aspects of their past. It could also be managers who are applying interested in applying coaching principles to developing their people. That last one in particular, we think is going to be a bit of a trend because the more the younger generation joins the workforce with Gen Z joining the workforce, their expectations of work and management are quite different. There is a higher expectation of that personalised experience of career growth and personal growth. And we also know that managers have a huge impact on people’s mental health. So we want to be the tool that puts coaching techniques, coaching tools and coaching principles in the hands of all of these people who care for people’s mental health. And we want to strengthen these relationships. We want to augment these relationships to the use of technology so that people can have that holistic approach to their growth, their integrals applied to any aspect of your life.

Leanne Elliott  1:08:44  
I think Meadows sounds like a really cool platform that I would want to use both as a coach and the coachee. I think it sounds fantastic. If you’d like more information on video, head over to Madhu dot life, that’s me D. O O, and you can join the launch waitlist.

Al Elliott  1:08:59  
Lovely. So let’s talk about the science business case. Is there a business case in terms of actual science for coaching?

Leanne Elliott  1:09:07  
Yeah, there is. I mean, if he’s still not convinced at this point, I mean, I can I could go on about how coaching psychology is recognised as it as a specialism in the global psychology community, including the British Psychological Society. There are science backed models spanning all different types of, of coaching, from behavioural coaching to positive psychology coach and goal setting. But if you’re really a sceptic, it’s probably a neuroscience research that might convince you so neuroscience research has shown us that coaching helps us to develop positive new neural networks, respond more calming to stress, make choices more easily, and also access much more of our creativity. And yeah, so this is basic our brain chemistry, the structure of our brain is changing as we go through this coaching intervention. So that’s

Al Elliott  1:09:52  
the science case for it. But what about the business case for it? Let’s hear from Lucy.

Unknown Speaker  1:09:56  
Both of your teams are working out less than 40% of that capacity, what would you do to be able to double that? Like, what would you pay to be able to at least double it? Yeah. In other words, think

Unknown Speaker  1:10:05  
of it as like car service, you know, you keep driving your car, and it might absolutely be on the road still, however, its fuel consumption is shot, and it’s costing you an awful lot to keep refuelling it, hey, take it into the car service pay for the car service, the coaching, and guess what your car now drives superbly, and takes and uses half the fuel it ever used. I mean, it’s a no brainer during the course of the service, and I’m going to save 3000 pounds in funeral every year. So, you know, there are measures of return on investment, and we can work with our clients on all sorts of things, we try and find out what are some of the problems, it might be about retention, if the cost of employing someone new to a business is huge. So therefore, they want to keep talent, it costs a lot to lose someone, but also cost an awful lot to keep someone who shouldn’t be in the business is causing an awful lot of problems. Let us come in and work with that. So that’s where the team coaching, group coaching, individual coaching comes in and all that dysfunction. So there’s lots of things, and sometimes it’s just the return on expectation. What is it you want to see change? How will the coaching enable that even if the tangible financials aren’t that clear, you know, as marketers, we could pretend they are. But sometimes they’re not always that measurable. But the return on expectation can always be measured.

Leanne Elliott  1:11:25  
That’s why I love about Sonya and Lucy, they’re just so honest and transparent. And, and yes, you know, state the fact this is the financial return, you will probably see in terms of your effectiveness as a leader. But also, it might just make you feel a whole lot better, and things will start to feel a bit more easy in your life. And to be honest, I don’t think you can put a monetary value on on that.

Al Elliott  1:11:45  
Absolutely. So ultimately, you know, what, if you don’t know, just try it. This is what Lucy said,

Unknown Speaker  1:11:52  
buy it, why not try it? You know, if you’ve got a toothache you call a dentist, if your skin looks a bit saggy, you’re gonna get a facial. If your thinking is a bit clouded, why wouldn’t you go to a coach that is just not in the common every day, you know, old black book is it you know, you’ve got someone to go to for these different things, your back hurts you call your physio. But so so much of the time I’m thinking is foggy, or we feel a little bit lost or direction Ness or lacking motivation. And it’s, it’s not enough to go I’m gonna go to my GP, I don’t need a therapist or a counsellor for this, but she needs someone to help lift me elevate me. So try out and if you know if budget is a problem, we looked at the ICS study last year that came out on access to coaching and a lot of people would like coaching, but they find that budget is a problem come and talk to us at ride the wave because we have lots of coaches who are qualified and not yet accredited, who offer discounted rates of coaching. And then the next step beyond that is if you’re working for a charity or social impact organisation, and there’s really no budget at all, we do have the pro bono coaching. So So come and check us out. We’d love to give everyone a little taster of coaching.

Leanne Elliott  1:12:53  
And I am actually a coach on the the social impact programme which by the way, so if that is you, you might you might come and come and talk to me, which would be lovely. Thank you so much to all of our incredible guests today. I know we’ve given you a lot to digest a lot to think about. But hopefully now you are equipped to know what kind of support you need, where to find it, how to know if it’s good, and the returns on your investment that you’re likely to see. Thank you to Julie Mayer from augmented Lucy and Sonya from ride the wave and of course Paul went from muddy, we will leave all their contact details in the show notes.

Al Elliott  1:13:30  
Yep, fantastic guests a lot to take in. And hopefully you now know the difference between mentoring between coaching, you also don’t know what you’re looking for if it is a transaction, or is it transformational coaching,

Leanne Elliott  1:13:41  
and that’s what Allah and I are qualified to do. We see huge value in mentoring as well. And of course, more therapeutic practices. If you would like some advice on the type of support that we offer, or perhaps where you can find a coach that will serve your needs. do get in touch with us, either through LinkedIn or we always leave our email address in the show notes. But you didn’t notice that before. Did you? Did you move on with the show? No. Good. We

Al Elliott  1:14:06  
spent hours on those jewellery show notes. Anyway, so we’ll see you next time. Thanks for joining us and stay safe but I never said that next week. Do you know so next week we are answering the question. I’m chuckling because I’m not quite sure whether to beat this out or not. But yeah. Are you an asshole boss? Do you have an asshole boss? So basically, it’s all about asshole bosses.

Leanne Elliott  1:14:29  
Well, one of life on leadership don’t be a dick.

Al Elliott  1:14:33  
So that’s what we’re talking about next week with three fabulous guests. Make sure you’re subscribed if you’re not subscribed, you can miss out on that and probably I’m gonna count up exactly how many times we say asshole and I’m gonna include the Americans workers got some Canadians so they’re gonna say assholes. I’m gonna include that but

Leanne Elliott  1:14:47  
I remember hearing even leave this one particularly if you do have an asshole boss. Leave this one till Friday and play a little responsible drinking game. And we’re very weak gin and tonic and take a sip every time You hear the word awesome. I’ll just, you know, unwind from your from your week.

Al Elliott  1:15:05  
So that’s something to look forward to on Friday. You can play with asshole. We will see you next week. Bye for now

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