Ep49: Wellbeing 2.0: Future-proofing Organisations for Success

In this episode, we dive into the fascinating topic of the future of wellbeing at work. As the world rapidly evolves, so do our perceptions and practices around employee wellbeing. 

Join us as we explore the emerging trends, strategies, and predictions that will shape the wellbeing landscape in the years to come.

In this thought-provoking conversation, we are joined by leading experts who share their insights on the future of wellbeing. 

We’re thrilled to welcome our expert guests:

Ryan Hopkins. 

Ryan is the Future of Well-being Leader at Deloitte. He is also a TedX speaker and author, on a mission to engage 1 billion people in the betterment of wellbeing.

Louise Aston. 

Louise is an award winning, high profile ambassador for health and wellbeing in the UK. With a career dedicated to tackling the stigma that surrounds mental health, including topics such as suicide, domestic abuse and sleep & recovery, Louise is currently Wellbeing Campaign Director at Business in the Community. 

Jason Richmond. 

Jason is VP of Sales Solutions at Headspace Health. A specialist in behavioural health, Jason started his career as a therapist before moving into organisational level interventions. 

Together, we uncover the key drivers transforming how organizations approach employee wellbeing, and how these shifts impact both individuals and businesses as a whole.

Join us as we discuss:

• Destigmatizing mental health
• Metrics and measurement
• Holistic approaches to well-being
• Leadership and culture
• Technology and A.I.

Discover the latest insights, strategies, and practical tips to create a thriving work environment that supports the wellbeing of your most valuable asset – your people.

Resources

All the links mentioned in the show.

Connect with Ryan:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanhopkinsuk/

Connect with Louise:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louiseastwellbeing/

Connect with Jason:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-richmond-indpls/

Connect with your hosts

• Connect with Al on LinkedIn 
• Connect with Leanne on LinkedIn
• Join the discussion about this episode on LinkedIn
• Email: podcast@TruthLiesandWork.com
• Follow us on Instagram @truthlieswork
• Chat with us on Twitter @truthlieswork
• YouTube channel for the podcast @TruthLiesWork
• Check us out on TikTok (LOL!!!) @truthlieswork

Related Episodes

Loved this episode? Here are some more you might like:

The Transcript

⚠️ NOTE: This is an automated transcript, so it might not always be 100% accurate!

Ryan Hopkins 0:00
it all stemmed from about 13 years ago I had a accident I broke my leg and my ankle, and I was the person and I’ve been in quite a dark place and

Leanne Elliott 0:14
Hello, and welcome to the truth lives and workplace culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I’m a Business psychologist.

Al Elliott 0:25
My name is Al I’m a business owner.

Leanne Elliott 0:27
We are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace coaches.

Al Elliott 0:32
Well, we’re coming to you today from the island of Sicily from you might notice that there’ll be some sweat running down our faces because we’re in a lovely house, but it’s 44 degrees outside and we obviously we’ve got our studio lights on and stuff we’ve got the windows Well, the the blinds open to try and get a decent amount of light. So if you do see us sweating, then it’s not the content is the weather.

Leanne Elliott 0:57
It’s been intense. I think this is like day 10 Now of this type of temperature. I just doesn’t get cool. At night. I guess. Look, it’s 38 degrees by half past eight in the morning. What is that about? Anyway? Enough bar firstworldproblems tell you. Yeah, how

Al Elliott 1:13
are you? How are you? We haven’t heard from you on LinkedIn for a while. Go on to LinkedIn search for truth lies and work you’ll find us. We can everywhere on there where we we like to post stuff. So get involved. Talk to us. Yeah. So today we’re talking about the future of wellbeing. As you’ve probably noticed, wellbeing has definitely increased in people’s perception over the last maybe decade. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it was only really for the for the IBM’s of the world. Now most people are thinking about well being the pandemic is probably accelerated a little bit as well, because obviously we’ve all been a bit more aware of amre mental health, and possibly physical health and working from home and all that jazz. Currently, I think Leanne’s worked out that is 5.2 billion US dollars is what it’s worth right now. And by 2030, is expected to reach 8 billion.

Leanne Elliott 2:02
Yeah, that is what is predictive. But of course, with the shifts in workplace attitudes, the ageing workforce that we’ve talked before on the podcast, technology, AI that seems to be in the headlines at the minute aren’t, isn’t it? You know, what does the future hold for well being and how could organizations remain healthy and of course, relevant as we step into, and this is a frightening thing now, the second quarter of the 21st century 2025. The first quarter 25% of the 21st century is just gone is done? Oh, I’m

Al Elliott 2:38
laughing. I’m like you’re getting all corporate and talking about q2 of the 21st century

Leanne Elliott 2:42
is inspired by cop talk last week.

Al Elliott 2:46
Definitely. If you didn’t listen to last week’s episode, go back and you’ll find there’s about five minutes where we’re really, really daft. And he still makes us chuckle. I think if we listen back to it,

Leanne Elliott 2:56
let’s put let’s put a pin in that for a minute our shall we? What do we need to do?

Al Elliott 3:00
Well, first of all, we’re gonna need to go and meet our amazing guests. So we first of all, got Ryan Hopkins, who’s from Deloitte. Then we’ve got Louise Astin, who’s from business in the community. And finally, we got Jason Richmond from headspace. It’s possible you’ve heard of that app. But before we go into all of that, it’s our favorite time of the week is the news roundup of Gengo. What have you got later, I have a new word you word alert.

Leanne Elliott 3:27
Shift shock used to care for this one, shift shock.

Al Elliott 3:33
So many things are going through my head right now.

Leanne Elliott 3:35
Basically, it means it’s like feeling remorse as a new hire. Like you’ve you’ve changed jobs, you change organizations, you’ve made that shift. And it’s a bit of a shock.

Al Elliott 3:46
Right? Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. grass is always greener and all that kind

Leanne Elliott 3:50
of thing. Indeed. Yeah. So um, so yeah, this this popped up. It is actually a tick tock trend. It’s got about 16,000 views on the chalk, as I like to call it so far. But yeah, basically, this is how it’s been defined. Also called new hires remorse, the term refers the feeling of regret, or unhappiness new employees might feel when a job is different, what they’re led to believe in the hiring process. And that can often lead to workers to Job hop back to their old job, or indeed to a new one, after a very short period of time reasons could be poor onboarding, shady recruitment, or lack of employer brand. Now, I totally get this. And I think there’s definitely some business leaders out there who might be guilty of making it sound like everything’s cool. And everything’s great in the recruiting process, but actually, maybe it’s a bit of a volatile time. And while it might seem counterintuitive, you know, you want to sell the dream, you’re probably actually better having a very honest and open conversation with that new person coming into your business or potentially coming into your business and saying, Look, this is kind of what’s going down the minute this is a plan, we’ve got to make things better. We see you being a central part of that. Are you in it? Above that, it’s all great. It’s far higher than your first day like shit, man, what’s going on here? The buildings on fire?

Al Elliott 5:07
There’s a great quote this caliber who said it, but it’s never as bad as you think. But it’s also never as good as you think. I think that’s probably a really smart thing to bear in mind. If you are going to be changing jobs, starting a business, getting a promotion, creating something at work. It’s never as good as you think it is. But it’s never as bad as you think it is.

Leanne Elliott 5:26
Is that what it is? Just don’t lie. Don’t lie to people going into your business, you know, you want them to trust you that it’s not a good stuff.

Al Elliott 5:38
What else you got Leah?

Leanne Elliott 5:40
Well, something that I thought was quite interesting. Actually, I was on I was on the LinkedIn, as I’ve mentioned, like to dip my toe in for a time. And I came across a post by the founder and CEO of a startup called Springworks. At Kotick Mandeville, who said that they had received more than 3000 applications for just one job posting in a matter of hours, like 2448 hours. Nuts, when we bear in mind, yes, the job market is slowing. Yes, there have been mass redundancies. But you know, equally there still is this talent shortage and this fight for talent out there that organizations are still feeling so to get that volume of applications kind of like, what’s going on there then? So I thought, Well, why not just go to Mr. Mandeville and ask ask himself,

Al Elliott 6:28
and did you? Yes, I did. I love your news runner, because you just pull these names that you’re a bit like Bob multimo. When it comes to names, it seems like you make them up. And now we’re talking to reginal marmalade. These are just amazing names. I want to be called Karthik Mandeville, that’s just cool. Anyway, sorry. So you spoke to you spoke to Karthik,

Leanne Elliott 6:45
I did. Let’s hear directly from him.

Kartik Mandaville 6:47
But in recent times, layoffs and then hiring freeze across different companies, especially in the tech startup sector has kind of changed the job market. Many companies have been calling people back to offices, which means people are either resigning or increasingly looking for remote options. So even though we have not really done main paid postings per se, apart from maybe augment off of copper, and even then we have been kind of getting these resumes. And it’s not just the 3000 are actually the entire 14,000 This month, and we have not seen this before. So I think this is partly as plus the overall macro situation in the in the country and in the world.

Al Elliott 7:37
I think it goes to show we are obviously very bullish on remote work, because that’s what we do. We work remote. We don’t even work from home. We work from Airbnb, or booking.com places like we are right now. So we’re very bullish. And so we it makes sense to us. But then I’m worried that that might be one of those I forget what the word is confirmation bias or something. Where because we are we think remote is the future. That words I think I think you might have used it, I wrote it down property use that impressive at some point. But so so I think perhaps it’s possible that we believe is down to being a remote position, because we believe in my work, but either way, amazing could work that could works on

Leanne Elliott 8:15
Yeah, and I think you’re right, you know, whether it’s whatever it is, if it’s if it’s differentiating you in the market right now being fully remote and not, you know, being completely cool and championing that. And that means that you get a massive amount of applications for for a job role than happy days. You know, I’m sure you say something about that when it comes to sales and marketing your value individual, what’s it called value proposition?

Al Elliott 8:36
Recruitment is marketing, sales and marketing. And so if all everyone’s offering remote opportunities in your sector, perhaps it’s worthwhile just trying saying this is in office only. And then you just differentiate yourself and you’re not in competition with other people. But this isn’t necessarily a recruitment workshop, although we wouldn’t be willing to do one of those if you’re interested. So get on to LinkedIn, let me know or let me know or just check the show notes below and you’ve got our contact details anyway.

Leanne Elliott 9:03
But I should just say thank you very much to Karthik for setting those voice notes over and we hope to have him on podcast very soon. Very cool. Very

Al Elliott 9:10
cool. Got anything else Lee?

Leanne Elliott 9:11
Well, for our final segment, Alan, are you enjoying the coop talk bingo last week a bit of fun. So I thought I’d come up with something else before Yeah. This is actually inspired by Ashley Menzies and Barbara twin day another fabulous name.

Al Elliott 9:25
I love it. I could say that all day. Like Bubba minutiae is another word that I really like. Same thing. That’s why I like Monday,

Leanne Elliott 9:31
Monday, Ashley Menzies Babatunde day. Awesome, awesome woman. She has a podcast on the HubSpot podcast network called no straight path or sibling show. She did an episode recently on what it is to be an accidental entrepreneur something that she identifies with didn’t necessarily set out to go and be an entrepreneur, but as far as yourself in that position, I guess I kind of relate to that although I still see myself more as a consultant than necessarily an entrepreneur. I’ll there was no accident between going into business was

Al Elliott 10:02
probably I don’t know, how to. Basically I failed my level. So the only thing I could do was teaching maths and I hated that I hated children. I hate math. So in terms of Venn diagrams, and that didn’t work, and then I got sacked from being a manager. So it was kind of like, not necessarily accidental, but the only path for me really because I was kind of like, on employable, which I think is probably quite true. Quite a common trait with entrepreneurs is that particularly after a while, I could never work for anyone now because one I’m too lazy to I like working whatever I like working and three, someone tells you what to do. I’ll be like, Oh, chance, I’m not doing that. Anyway, what sorry, I feel like I’ve got off on a rant. So yes,

Leanne Elliott 10:44
so yeah, Ashley was basically saying, you know, building your business, you can sometimes find yourself there unexpectedly. It’s hard work. There’s lots of challenges, lots of uncertainty. And I’ve caused these situations that I’ve translated this Ashley probably wouldn’t say this. I’ve translate this as to kind of those moments. And we both had these, where you look around and go, What the fuck is this? She knew I mean, they’re you like how to how did we get here? Like both good and bad moments? Like, like, WTF WTF moments. But yeah, so I thought, I’ll do some research on this. Turns out, we’re not alone now looked at Entrepreneur Magazine posted basically a list of some crazy shit that can happen to you as a business owner. So it’s sharing timeout. Are you ready? I’ll read through a couple. See what speaks to you if you have a story share. So the first kind of WTF moment of being an entrepreneur and accidental entrepreneur, taking an all important phone call from a very weird place.

Al Elliott 11:38
Yeah, I think we were on we when we used to live in a place called Esteban or in in Spain in southern Spain. We want to rent it really cheap and offseason we want to rented this like yacht with like all the skipper and everything. So we ended up in the middle of the middle of, of the bay watching these dolphins. And I remember taking a phone call from I think it was the bank manager or something. And I was standing with one foot up on something on this rope on the yacht talking and I felt like this is a really strange would be Have I made it? I’m on a yacht talking to my business manager. So that’s one of them. And there is another one where I had to negotiate something fairly sensitive whilst I was indisposed in a public toilet. But that was kind of really weird, but I was wondering where there is leading I was doing Nevermind, I was I was otherwise engaged, literally in the public toilet.

Leanne Elliott 12:29
Excellent. Yeah. My second one, there’s always some dickhead.

Al Elliott 12:36
You got one of these

Leanne Elliott 12:38
1000s of days. There’s just I think there’s just always when you’re when you’re in it may be either self employed or trying to create content. There always just be seems to be some dickhead, that seems to be doing really well. And you’re like, how? Like, you’re not even very nice. Yeah, I won’t mention anyone in particular, but definitely many people that I think I don’t I don’t know how you’re successful. But fair enough. I will try and take some lessons from that.

Al Elliott 13:14
That was brilliant. Well done. Lee. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. So let’s get on with the main section because it is hot as balls in here. So if you do see this, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. We’ll try and edit it out and post. I say that I don’t have clarity. Okay, so on to the main section. Okay, so today we are talking about the future of wellbeing. We’re saying what are the current trends? What’s here to stay? Will generational differences have an impact on this kind of like strategy? What about AI and technology? How does it all fit in? Well, we’ve got three amazing guests who are going to talk you all the way through that

Leanne Elliott 13:51
we do. Our first guest is Ryan Hopkins, who is a future wellbeing leader at Deloitte a pretty good person to ask about this kind of stuff. He is also a TEDx speaker and author and on a mission to engage 1 billion people in the betterment of wellbeing.

Ryan Hopkins 14:07
My name is Ryan Hopkins on future Valby and leader for Deloitte. I am working with workplaces around the world to develop culture people can thrive not bikes. Bananas are one off events, developing work where people can turn up and be their best selves, where the individual on the organization’s fives.

Al Elliott 14:23
Our second guest is Louise Astin, she is an award winning high profile ambassador for health and well being in the UK, with a career dedicated to tackling the stigma that surrounds mental health including topics such as suicide, domestic abuse, sleep recovery. Louise’s currently the well being campaign director at business in the community. So let’s go meet Louise and hear more about business in the community.

Louise Aston 14:45
Yeah, so business in the community. We are the prince’s responsible business movement. So basically our membership we actually reach 20% of UK employees. Most of our members are large corporates. And what we do is we convene businesses to solve really challenging issues which they could never do on their own. But in terms of collectively working towards common goals,

Leanne Elliott 15:18
our final guest is Jason Richmond. Jason is VP of Sales solutions at headspace health, a specialist in behavioral health, he actually started his career as a therapist before moving into organizational level interventions. Here’s Jason to explain more.

Jason Richmond 15:35
My name is Jason Richmond. And, as you said, vice president of our Clinical Solutions area at Space health, I’ve been in the behavioral health field for the last 25 years. The first part of that journey as a therapist myself, and so I practiced for a dozen years and and then I moved into the medical insurance carrier side of behavioral health. And so I was basically working to help to develop and deliver behavioral health products to the commercial market.

Leanne Elliott 16:07
We also have a few cameos from the guests to look out for those.

Al Elliott 16:11
So Dan’s taken all of the insights from our amazing guests, and she has identified seven future trends of wellbeing.

Leanne Elliott 16:17
I have and these trends are all things that business owners can capitalize on today, to build resilient and high performing teams in the future. So are you ready for our first trend out? I am the ongoing D stigmatization of mental health catchy? Well, you know, I’m not I’m not the marketer here. I’m sure you can call it a catch, you know, but you know, like you were saying earlier, since the pandemic, especially mental health is becoming much more of a day to day conversation, it doesn’t have the same stigma it did 50 years ago, or even 100 years ago, I think it was in our our mental health awareness episode, we actually talked about that didn’t we kind of how the last one years, it has changed significantly from, you know, you would be classified as a lunatic and put in the asylum, to now being a part of day to day conversation, and organizational life as well. So Experts are predicting that organizations that continue this mission will not only remain relevant in the market to both consumers and prospective talent, or reap the commercial benefits to so crucially, this type of commitment from business owners and leaders is one of the few things are driving systemic change. I think, did we use the example of, of like accidents in the workplace, in a podcast recently about kind of how this as accountability needs to sit with the leaders?

Al Elliott 17:37
Yeah, absolutely. I think we talked about it. We’ve talked about several times, I think, certainly in the psychological safety, we’ve touched on it last week as well, which definitely one worth going back and listening to.

Leanne Elliott 17:46
Yeah, so I think this is a real opportunity for business owners for business leaders. So let’s hear more on that from Louise, who was well being campaign director at business in the community,

Louise Aston 17:57
we’re in a situation right now, where employers have two choices, they can do nothing, which, quite frankly, with, you know, kind of low productivity, high attrition deteriorating many employee mental health is not a sustainable option. Or they can redefine success, which is about prioritizing people and unlocking the value of a thriving workforce. And this hasn’t been done before. Now we’ve got the data to actually really substantiate it. So this is very much about tackling the systemic causes of poor mental health. It’s not about taking a kind of tactical, reactive, individual approach to individuals. This is about a whole system, whole organizational approach,

Leanne Elliott 18:55
this type of shift will completely flipped mental health on its head, because instead of talking about coming from a place of of deficit, and then getting just kind of getting people to the point of surviving, if we’re flipping that to a more positive psychology approach, and saying we’re actually going to work really hard to take people from surviving to thriving, the impact not only on individuals, but on organizations as well is going to be massive. And this is exactly what the foundation of this lum Mark report produced by business in the community. And McKinsey health was all about prioritize people unlocking the value of a thriving workforce. What’s also really cool about this report is it’s been developed for CFOs in collaboration with CFOs. So it really just create a very compelling economic value proposition for placing employees and well being at the heart of organizational strategy.

Louise Aston 19:52
I’m really excited about this report. It’s a real landmark report. It’s the first time I ever, that all the aggregated data that supports thriving employees has been analyzed in one place, we’ve been fortunate enough to have the McKinsey Health Institute as our research partner. So basically, they have actually analyzed that data. So that’s the first in terms of looking at the benefits of prioritizing thriving people. But also, what’s very special about this report is we convened an advisory boards of chief financial officers. So this is they very much shaped the report along with business in the communities leadership team, and obviously, with the support of the McKinsey Health Institute, and what the report highlights, which is super exciting, is the size of the prize for getting this right, in terms of truly enabling thriving employees. So the research shows that actually, the UK economic value of improved employee wellbeing could be between 130 to 370 billion per year, or that six to 17% of UK its gross domestic product, but that’s the equivalent of for between four to 12,000 pounds per UK employee. So think of that size of the prize. This could solve the cost of living crisis. I mean, it’s phenomenal. So this is really groundbreaking. And, you know, historically, the focus has always been looking at the cost of poor mental health. And we’ve turned this on its head, so very excited.

Al Elliott 22:00
So Ryan from Deloitte agrees that it’s a lucrative opportunity for organizations to instigate a radical new approach to employee wellbeing. He also quotes research from Liz Hampton, who’s the director in Deloitte strategy, consulting, practice, monitor, Deloitte

Ryan Hopkins 22:15
comes in three chunks, we did lots of writing and development of all the reports and thought leadership. And I, Liz Hansen and the team have done some incredible work since 2017, the Deloitte mental health report in the UK, one pound spent five pound back. So I’m standing on the shoulders of giants, right? Don’t think that was me. It wasn’t, but I’m building on that work. And what we do with organizations is help them understand first and foremost, a big piece of work with the institute directors, we asked 30,000 leaders in the UK, are you measuring the effectiveness or is your well being efforts, we found that only one to 2% of them were all doing these amazing things, providing solutions applications support catching people when they fall, which the right thing to do. But we have no idea how effective these things are, what gets measured gets incentivize gets improved. This the first thing and we need to understand the needs interest concerns, expectations and risks of the people. There’s also the measurement, the implementation, the change and stuff, like any decent measure in the workplace. If we launch initiative, and we don’t have a concerted change effort around it, we don’t track the effectiveness of it and measure it or set up the data capability, it’s not gonna work.

Leanne Elliott 23:25
As I mentioned before, we have come a pretty long way, in a short period of time when it comes to mental health. Bear in mind, you know, 18th century mental health was attributed to the supernatural to witchcraft. It wasn’t really until the 20th century where we saw psychologists like Freud, and Skinner, that really started to think about these as more mental health conditions. And even then, it was 1983 that the Mental Health Act in the UK was introduced, even then any significant updates in 2007. And in 2021, the UK Government have again pledged to relook at the Mental Health Act to remove any inequity for individuals. So this stuff is fairly new. And we are asking organizations to play a leading role in this radical rethink of mental health and well being at work. But as Ryan explains, the data is continuing to show us that happy employees are very, very good for business. It’s something

Ryan Hopkins 24:25
that’s one off on the side, it seems a nice to have the unknown, the understanding that this is something that drives performance is relatively new. And there’s data everywhere, but we’re almost suffering from too much of it. And we don’t know which piece to look at and the C suite have on 100 priorities. Keeping the business afloat 10% inflation, the war and Ukraine everything. How do you know what to focus on? And if it’s something that seen as a benefit solution or webinar, it’s going to remain that but it isn’t. It’s not something that’s added. Wellbeing is often about looking at the world have the systems, the processes, the structure, the experience, the policies, the technology, not a benefit. That is part of it. But it’s not in its entirety from the research that we’re doing. And the Oxford University well being Research Center, we’re doing as well with BT. And they found that a one point increase in happiness resulted in a 12% increase in sales, they’re starting to draw out the real clear links with massive studies, which are undeniable, and I think that data is becoming more and more clear, and the understanding is developing. But like anything that takes time, and the perception is that it’s a soft, fluffy thing that’s on the side, but it’s so far from that.

Al Elliott 25:39
So Jason Richman, who’s the VP of sales solution at headspace health, he agrees that this shift from negative to positive connotations is the future of wellbeing. So these segments is a conscious consideration of the headspace health brand.

Jason Richmond 25:55
You know, headspace is obviously a has a direct to consumer portion of that, and people have a choice. In the app stores have multiple different tools, what I would say is that headspace has really been around the longest, what I think that we do really well is the quality of the meditation and mindfulness that we deliver. I think it’s it’s of the highest quality. I also think that the the brand and the feel, is very appealing to people. It’s upbeat, it’s got a very sort of positive feel to it. And so I don’t necessarily, I think when people are looking around for meditation, mindfulness, it’s not because they want to feel less happy.

Al Elliott 26:36
I think that the pandemic, which I came, I hate using that P word, but it had such a big impact on everything. The pandemic has really brought to the forefront mental health, and it means that, particularly on the younger generation to Zed, and probably the ethical health was the ones behind that. They seem relatively happy to talk about their own mental health. And so for the first time, probably since World War Two, we have older generations, and everyone employers, leaders, everyone can kind of get an idea of what mental health is, and why it is such an important aspect of something to understand. I think this, this ability to be vulnerable and talk about your own mental health on video on Tiktok on whatever is probably going to be one of the key things it’s going to D stigmatize this whole problem of mental health. 20 years ago, if you said, I feeling depressed, everyone be like, Oh my god, I’m not talking to Arthur anymore, he’s, he might go and kill himself. Now people are happy to say or seem happier to disclose that they are struggling a little bit. So our guests have shared their own experiences mental health. So we’re going to hear from Luis first, then Jason, and then Ryan.

Louise Aston 27:41
So my background is actually creative side trends as a textile designer for fashion, and started my career as a fashion buyer at Marks and Spencer, I transitioned into campaigning by taking health into fashion for a national skin cancer prevention campaign. And then I really got the campaigning bug. And you know, in terms of purpose, my values, and then basically, my brother was sadly diagnosed with schizophrenia. And that’s when I entered the mental health space, very early on in terms of tackling stigma. And from there, you know, I was creative director, the government’s Marketing and Communications Agency, five day was mine, torture Frank, don’t give up giving up tobacco education. So really, that background in terms of my passion, my beliefs, my values, making a difference, has led me to what I do now.

Jason Richmond 28:43
Once I started studying, I found the human mind. Fascinating. I found human behavior very interesting. Why do people do the things they do? All interest me. And then and so I pursued psychology. I had a terrific professor in my undergrad that taught an experiential psychology course. And I took that and it was it was a course that allowed, it was very small there were only like a dozen people in the class. And it allowed us to really sort of practice a bit of vulnerability in almost like a group counseling session for an entire semester. And then we did a a trip, experiential trip where we went whitewater rafting and rappelling to like challenge your own personal fears. As part of that experience, that hooked me at that point, seeing seeing the ability to sort of connect with people. I wanted to do more. And that led me to a graduate degree in dental practice, so that the ability to be able to connect with someone, I can’t solve their problems. I’m not I’m not responsible for their problems, but to be able to connect with someone when they truly need that was very meaningful to me. I felt like that was a worthwhile pursuit.

Ryan Hopkins 29:56
all stem from about 13 years ago I had a x And I broke my leg of my ankle, and I was depressed and end up in quite a dark place. And coming back from there I’ve been through. I’ve had bulimia for years, anxiety, on and off medicated for the best part of 10 years. And as I pace myself back together again and again, I was learning what works and what didn’t, and moved into the wellbeing space about six years ago.

Al Elliott 30:25
So our second future trend is employee engagement and connection employee engagement are Leanne’s favorite word. Employee engagement, without a doubt is the focus of the future in terms of wellbeing, employee engagement, and connection is all about fostering the sense of belonging, community, and social connection within organizations, as Louise explains,

Louise Aston 30:47
so this goes beyond well being. Okay. So in terms of being thriving, that is when people can absolutely be at their best. So it’s about optimizing wellbeing engagement. It’s about sharing purpose and value with your organization. Because a lot of all of this is about organizations putting thriving people at the heart of their organizational purpose and business strategy. And obviously, you’ve also got to align that with culture to make it real.

Al Elliott 31:23
Louise also goes on to explain that this isn’t something for large corporations, the IBM and Microsoft, the world, this is for smaller businesses, too, and he’s going to really help them thrive.

Louise Aston 31:32
Yeah, well, we were very mindful about the reports and our actions being relevant to SMEs. And actually, as part of the process of developing prioritize people report, we actually involved a handful of SMEs to ensure that basically, it was accessible and relevant. And in terms of the tools that we’ve got coming down the line that will be launched in September. Again, they will be relevant and accessible for SMEs. So, you know, I would say we would say that prioritizing people unlock the value of a thriving workforce is relevant to all organizations, regardless of size or sector.

Leanne Elliott 32:21
I think arguably, employee engagement may be even more relevant to smaller or owner led businesses, particularly those that are looking to scale and exit. We’ve mentioned before about ESG. Environmental social governance is a framework used to assess organization business practices, and something that is growing in popularity and importance. The the s of ESG social, this is where employee engagement firmly sits. And it’s really about looking at any way that we can create environments in which people can experience positive mental health and positive performance. And when it comes to investors, we are increasingly seeing now that this type of data in terms of employee engagement and well being is being requested as part of the due diligence, and again, that fits into that that s of ESGs. So something that is really, really important for any business owner that is looking to scale and potentially exit that company. The other thing to bear in mind, as we learned from Andrew berry a few episodes ago from mind, it is actually a legal obligation that you carry out a stress assessment on your within your workforce every year, which I don’t think many small organizations know about, let alone do. And there is also some very significant talk of the government making ESGs as a data reporting point, mandatory for all businesses in the UK. So if employee engagement is not currently on your radar, it’s time to start thinking about it. His leads to tell us more,

Louise Aston 33:57
I suppose why? Another reason why this agenda cannot be ignored is basically is there’s growing anticipation that investors are going to be demanding that businesses report on social of ESG as they do on the environmental and governance dimensions. So businesses, whether they like it or not, are going to have this imposed on them at some point down the line. So this isn’t a great opportunity to anticipate and respond to this trend in investor pressure by proactively investing in employee health and well being and treat the kind of concepts of a thriving workforce as a critical capital asset on balance sheets, and in turn is to publicly disclose.

Leanne Elliott 34:56
Louise went on to explain the organizations that focus and report on ESG He efforts are more likely to have a competitive employer brand.

Louise Aston 35:03
So the vision is that more businesses will start to publicly report on thriving people. So this again is linked to putting the s the social into ESG. That is about accountability, transparency, obviously, there will be big business benefits in terms of attracting and retaining talent basically, in terms of making thriving people making well being non negotiable. And business as usual, is we know that job seekers and employees are becoming more discerning about the employers they want to work for. So basically, I’d like to see happier, healthier and more engaged workforces and are happier, UK

Al Elliott 35:57
ESG is also important in terms of consumer brands. The research shows us that Gen Zed shoppers demand sustainable retail. The majority of Gen Zed shoppers prefer to buy sustainable brands and most are willing to spend 10% more on sustainable products. A Pew Research Center survey finds that millennials and Gen Zed stand out for their high levels of engagement within the issue of climate change, and 1/3 of millennials often or exclusively use investment products that take ESG factors into account. So this is also saying for 19% of Gen Zetas now Gen Zed is a lot of Gen Zed is who responded to the survey, they’ve said that they experienced stress or sadness or anger or frustration due to climate change. And it’s related disasters. We’ve we’re sitting in Sicily at 44 degrees as good as wildfires in the north of Italy. This hailstone

Leanne Elliott 36:48
the size of golf balls. Have you seen that on YouTube? No, I

Al Elliott 36:51
haven’t, I’m gonna have to have a look. But the whole point is that this isn’t something that we can just ignore anymore. And Gen Zed has because they’re the future of the of the world. They are so passionate about this. More than 50%, the respondents expressed this fear and anxiety about the future. And Gen Xers demonstrate a greater concern than other generations. So this is probably why Gen Zed are prioritizing their mental health and demanding the employers do the same. I asked Jason about this.

Jason Richmond 37:16
Yeah, great question. So I would say a little bit a little bit. Yes. I think that it is a generational thing. It’s it’s definitely true that the generation that’s coming up, now is much more open to talk about the mental health struggles that they may have. And actually to feel almost a sense of entitlement from their employer to say, yes, you should care about my mental health. And yes, you should offer services that helped me to address good mental health. I think that’s a that’s a healthy progression.

Leanne Elliott 37:45
Yep, employee engagement, and specifically ESG, saying behind that strategy is really going to be an impactful thing you can do as a business owner, not only to improve the well being of your team, but to really increase your competitiveness in the market. So a third future trend is metrics and measurement. I don’t think this is a shock. Maybe I’ll

Al Elliott 38:06
know you like metrics, measurements and data. It’s what you’re left for.

Leanne Elliott 38:10
I do I do. And our experts like it, too. Why? Because well, fluffy is often a word that is used to describe HR people and culture Well, being professionals. As a psychologist, I can admit there may well be and are some products and services out there that may fall into that fluffy category or perhaps as wellness washing. And the reason for that is that is no evidence of no data behind those interventions. To measure that impact. The focus moving forward has to be on measuring the impact of various wellbeing interventions through data and through metrics. Louise and colleagues at business and the community and McKinsey health recognize this, and then building the this flagship people report made sure to include the most metric driven of all three suite, the CFO,

Louise Aston 39:00
the primary audience, for the report, are CFOs. As I said, they’ve shaped the report, and why CFOs Well, obviously, they hold the purse strings, but also CFOs are really interested in creating value. And obviously to do with ESG and putting the s social into ESG. That is all about creating value. And people are the most critical assets, but also human capital is a really important part of enterprise value.

Leanne Elliott 39:40
Jason agrees that there is an increasing understanding that good mental health affects the bottom line.

Jason Richmond 39:46
It is it is way more impactful from a financial standpoint than I think anybody ever knew. And now there’s a growing recognition within employers that good mental health affects the bottom line Mind. But for years and years, mental health was considered just sort of a check the box kind of benefit that, yes, we need to do something for them. But let’s, let’s offer something and then not think about it again. And I would say over the last decade or so there’s been this growing recognition that that people are more productive when they are in a good part and upon headspace. The reality is that product, productivity, absenteeism, presenteeism, which is coming to work, but not being really present while you’re at works, and therefore not very effective. And then high turnover rates of staff are all very expensive propositions for an employer. And that none of that takes into account the cost of comorbidity. And so we all know that it’s Yeah, so comorbidity if you think about the fact that employers know that the most expensive sort of physical conditions that someone may have like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, musculoskeletal issues, those are all very expensive things for for our workforce. And for an employer, we know that there’s a mental health component to all of those, any any new diagnosis that someone gets medically creates an emotional experience, people have an emotional experience related to their physical self. And we see comorbidities like CO occurrences of depression with, let’s say, diabetes, and with heart disease. And there have been plenty of studies that have been done that show that have done two different cohorts, those that are addressing the mental health issue, and those that have done nothing to address the mental health issue, and the recovery rates of those that address their mental health issue, the recovery rates for their physical condition is much higher at a much faster rate. So it takes longer and cost more, if you don’t address the mental health issue. First,

Al Elliott 41:57
we also asked Ryan from Deloitte and he agreed the future of wellbeing lies in showing CFOs. The money

Ryan Hopkins 42:03
it’s seen as this soft, fluffy thing is so so far from that. And that’s the work I’m doing to make sure I’m attaching pound notes. So not prioritizing it in the workplace, to show the C suite, how much money they’re losing. And then we say, Okay, do we want to do something about this? And inevitably, the answer is yes, when they see it put down quite simply, wellbeing is so much more than a set of policies or a solution or an application. It’s something that’s integrated in every single part of the business, it’s cross functional, includes every part of the business, we help organizations like set up the strategy, which is super interesting. So and the biggest effect I’ve had on well being previously was working with IT function in one organization will be focused on using tech sustainably used develop all these tips and stuff like that, and end up saving the business two and a half million hours in the year,

Al Elliott 42:52
two and a half million hours in the year. We’ve already talked about this, you wouldn’t do marketing without checking your ROI and checking your stripe checking your metrics and making sure it’s actually working. Why are we why are we not doing the same with well being? Yes, there are some apps out there. Lian alluded to them before. It’s just nice to have, they’re going oh, yeah, we’ve got something in place. Are you actually checking your ROI? are you actually seeing that it’s saving you money, because if it’s not stopped doing it and do something else, wellbeing is a science, his reign,

Ryan Hopkins 43:22
what we can start to do is treat it like a science, you wouldn’t go to Marketing and say, what’s the engagement this month? Or go to Sales and say, what’s the sales numbers looking like? Or go to ops and say, How’s the art know the square meter? Which of the office sites, you go to our building? So how is this MSL? I’m not sure. So if we really want to move it forward, we’re going to start marking ourselves a little bit, and that’s uncomfortable. But to give it the the attention, and the budget it deserves, then we need to start doing that tracking the effects and effectiveness of our efforts. And we will, unfortunately, see that a lot of what we’re doing is not helping, and potentially exacerbating issues, the world best applications and solutions when I was at my lowest, I wouldn’t have wanted, I wouldn’t have been able to, I wouldn’t have been the headspace. What I needed was the love and attention of the people that I care the most about. The most, the most, the most important part of my day now is was I blocked my lunch out on my calendar, and I’ll give my Nana call every day. And that, for me is more valuable than anything else. So what we can do is measure it and get a couple of measures and get the C suite to understand the importance. So simply put, if you’re going to do one thing to create a burning platform to change wellbeing, it will be to look at the attrition, the voluntary attrition and then find out the reason for people leaving. It’s like mental health report 2022 of the several lists Hampson team, so incredible Look at 62% of people that left their jobs last year, or planning to next year due to poor mental health, stress, workload, etc. You apply that percentage to the voluntary attrition and work out how much each person leaving your business costs when it costs about seven and a half months salary to hire and retrain someone, plus the increased cost of salary in the market with inflation being 10%. You’ve now got X figure per person, times that by 62% of the people that that’s the business and you’ve got a 5000 person organization you’ve got by 35 million. That is your platform. And you can say okay, so, alright, so people are leaving because of workload, stress, stress being workload being the biggest cause of stress in the workplace, double anything else. So how do we address this, then you understand the nicer the needs, interest concerns, expectations and risks? Biggest stress is non stop work culture can’t switch off. Okay, so how do we address that? One or two things, attach a measurement, a clear KPI to eat, treat it like the science, that it is, give it the respect it deserves. And do this and we say okay, so we’re going to aim for a point 2% reduction in voluntary attrition every year, we do that, we measure it. And then we earn the right to do more. And we start to open up the scope to develop a truly flexible, psychologically safe workplace where we belong all of those sorts of things, as he developed wellbeing as well as an outcome. It’s not the focus, the more you talk about it, the less likely you are to affect it. It’s about configuring the work and everything around around the people because what you need is different to what I need. And when we do this properly, and we encourage everyone to become, come in and be their self and share their things. And we get the leaders who exemplify this amazing behavior, and we measure it all.

Al Elliott 46:48
Okay, so number four is personalization and customization. Oh, my God, as a marketer coming to this this area. It’s kind of strange how similar some of these fundamentals are, with an increasingly diverse workforce who want different things like hybrid working work from home, remote, all that kind of thing. We have to make sure that we personalize the way work experience in order to stay competitive. This isn’t, oh, well, look, you know, Dorothy wants to work from home once a week. So maybe we should let her know. Because if you don’t, then Dorothy may go off and find herself a position and a company that does do that kind of thing. So wellbeing is no different. And Jason from headspace explains that on demand services will play a huge role in personalizing and customizing support

Jason Richmond 47:36
your ask so as you’re aware, Andy started the company. And I think it was 2010 here in the UK. And it was the first digital mindfulness meditation app that was available to the masses. And it’s really grown since then. And what happened is, about a year and a half ago, headspace merged with a US based company that was called Ginger. And ginger was an on demand virtual mental health care delivery system. And the idea of this was the fact that headspace, as you know, was really a leader in mindfulness and meditations, self directed tools for people to build resiliency, and, and really create a healthy, emotionally healthy lifestyle. And what that what it lacked was, when it encountered people who needed more care or higher level of care, it just it there was really nothing for them in that in that instance. And so the merger between these two organizations allows headspace to expand its reach from just being a self directed tool to actually now providing services like behavioral health counseling, which is available on demand, or coaching, which is available on demand and then counseling for those who need clinical levels of service. We also have the ability to fully deliver EAP services. And so for groups that are unhappy with their current EAP. And perhaps we’re looking to replace that we have the ability to provide work life services and management, consultations, critical incident responses, those sorts of things. So, you know, headspace, which is a hugely well known brand, known for mindfulness meditation done digitally through an app now is one of the most comprehensive mental health solutions on the market, because it’s from mindfulness meditation all the way through complex mental health conditions, that they’re able to offer services. And the idea is that mental health is a journey, right? It’s never linear. It’s never you know, it’s always a one size doesn’t fit all kind of proposition. Everybody’s experiences unique and and so we wanted to be able to develop a solution that was going to really take people wherever that journey goes, and they’re always to have something for everybody. And the ability to deliver that to a workforce really was just the next slide. logical step for our company.

Al Elliott 50:02
So Jason went on to say that, that he believes the private sector organizations like headspace health, where He’s the VP of sales will play a key role in the future of mental health care, often filling the demand and helping services to be more accessible to the majority,

Jason Richmond 50:18
our mental health care system, both in the UK and the US, is inadequate at best. And I say that with all deference, because I’ve been a part of it for 25 years, it just simply needs to evolve. And that is what is is going on in in real time, it’s evolving, it’s becoming better. And so part of part of what we offer that’s different is that it’s truly on demand within the very moment that someone decides that it’s time for me to get help. And that’s a difficult decision. When they do and they raise their hand, we can connect them with a behavioral health coach, within two minutes or less. The average time of coach response in our entire book of business right now, and that’s millions of people is 51 seconds, within 51 seconds of you saying I need to talk to somebody, and we’re connecting you, in the old system, you’d have to call somewhere, maybe get a referral from a GP, maybe you would have to wait for callbacks, you would then schedule an appointment that might be days or weeks out. By that time, the amount of distance between when you experienced the thing that motivated you to get help. And now you get to talk about it could be weeks and weeks. people drop out, they lose motivation. They simply don’t do it. Our solution is offered immediately in that moment.

Leanne Elliott 51:43
That is some fabulous research by Rand. You’re led by Christian van Stolk, who appeared on podcast back in the Britain’s healthiest workplace episode. I want to say January. Sounds about right. But yeah, Christian and his team at RAND Europe have really dived into customization and personalization in the world of wellbeing and wellbeing support. So when we spoke with Christian, he shared some of his research findings. Let’s hear very quickly about that.

Christian van Stolk 52:11
Yeah, so so the idea was, really is that there’s sort of, you know, sort of, there are a number of preconceptions about, you know, what the world of hybrid working will look like. So on the one extreme, you will have people Well, everybody has to come back into the office, because we, you know, we, you know, that that is tends to be better for business outcomes, you’ll have more social interactions there. On the other hand, you know, there’s a school of thought that says, Well, look, you know, remote working has sort of worked during the pandemic. So we need to introduce more remote working or allowed people to work and be working as flexibly as we can. And of course, as always, the truth is somewhere in the middle, right. And so, so this study really tried to look at what the world of hybrid working looks like, to some extent, but also try to link work behaviors that we’re seeing in this new way of working to health and well being outcomes. And the way that we could do that is because we have two interesting data sources. One is Microsoft, Viva analytics data. So basically, anything you do on your computer, more or less is captured by somebody, right. And so Microsoft, if you use Microsoft 365, collects all of that information in one place. So I can tell you, I can, if I have your date, on the end, I for instance, I would know when you’re in a meeting or in a podcast with me as it happens, when you are actually sending an email, what a time you’re sending this email, whether you’re working late or time you start working, and your computer switches on. All of these things are captured. And so this sounds a little bit scary, but don’t worry about that too much. And of course, on the other side, what we had is we have very detailed health records of fatalities employees, because of course, vitality collects a huge amount of information. And we could merge these datasets to some extent. So that shows the idea was really to look at certain types of work behaviors, and then look at what the health and wellbeing impacts of that work behavior would be. So for instance, you could say sending emails late in the evening is bad for health and well being. Or you get up really early and you start working, that is bad for your health and well being or being an excessive number of meetings during the day might be bad for your health and well being these were the hypothesis that we were testing, as it happens. In this research, what we showed is that there are really different categories of workers, first of all, is that’s important to think about. So you know, even within an organization or a variety of different subcultures. And these workers typically like to work in slightly different ways. And that’s interesting. And if you dig below that and there is no real uniform type of work behaviors that leads to optimal health and well being outcomes. So what this means is really that there’s a high degree of personalization that is required within a work Horse. So having a blanket ban on emails after seven or eight an evening might seem like a good idea to achieve executive, but ultimately, you probably are sort of impacting negatively, and, you know, a certain group of workers within your organization. So that seems to me to push a lot of responsibility down to line managers in terms of managing their staff effectively, and trying to encourage work behaviors that lead to better health and well being and of course, understanding really what staff need as well. So that’s, that’s really what this study is about.

Leanne Elliott 55:34
And of course, personalization, and individualization is gonna feed directly into diversity and inclusion, we don’t have the time to dive into that in more detail here. But to find out more, check out our EDI one on one and neurodiversity. One on One episodes, we’ll leave a link for these and Christians research in the show notes.

Al Elliott 55:54
So the fifth trend that Leann has identified is this holistic approach to wellbeing. So it’s great that we’re starting to talk more around more about health in the workplace. But we need a more holistic view of this whole thing. We need to be encompass mental, emotional, social, and all that kind of aspects of wellbeing. So Jason, from headspace agrees, and he says that this is why there are so many more programs coming up there, which are more comprehensive around wellness than just health.

Jason Richmond 56:21
It’s also been influenced very intentionally, I think, by our society, which has said, Let’s not treat mental health any different than we treat physical health. If you think about it for years and years, we’ve been, we’ve all accepted the truth that if you want to stay physically well, and be preventative about it, you know, that you need to eat right, you need to get enough sleep, you need to exercise regularly, right? Everybody knows that. And we all accept it. No one challenges that we talk about it freely and openly, and we see people engaging in it all around us, we have not extended that same mindset to our emotional well being. And the reality is that there are plenty of preventative things that we can be doing and should be doing in order to stay emotionally well, and and we’re just now on the cusp of, of I think making that truly table stakes, where people readily accept easily accept the fact that yes, of course, I should be meditating, I should be, you know, having good social experiences, I should maintain good boundaries with my work, there are things that we can sort of normalize in the in the workforce and in our populations that would allow people to start to start taking care of their their themselves, which in turn will reduce the number of escalations, the number of symptom development, all of those things. It’s it’s that movement that you’re experiencing, that I think is a very, it’s a very good thing for our for our society.

Al Elliott 57:56
And it’s not just about how we approach our own health is really important to change how we approach the health of others,

Jason Richmond 58:02
it is perfectly acceptable for everybody to say, You know what, I’m struggling right now. Or I’m seeing a therapist or perhaps, people to to normalize the idea of maybe even ask each other about that, you know, if you knew if you had a colleague or a co worker who had just recently had a knee surgery, when you saw that person, again, you’d inquire about how their knee is. We never ask people who have been missed because of a personal experience. We don’t talk about that, because we’re uncomfortable ourselves, at times talking about it. We don’t want to make someone else uncomfortable. What if we, what if this changed that you and I are describing what if that turned into a situation where it’s perfectly acceptable for me to ask you about your mental health? You You and I just met, if I open the conversation with how you’re doing emotionally, you would think that’s a little odd. What if we lived in a world where that wasn’t the case, though, we actually cared about that with one another. I think that would be delightful. It would

Leanne Elliott 59:03
be delightful. Jason it it really would. But you know, this type of change does take time and building these types of relationships takes time, which is why it’s so important for business leaders for business owners to build that their self awareness and their emotional intelligence so they can build these rich coaching based relationships with the members of their team.

Al Elliott 59:23
I asked Jason more about these sort of difficult conversations, and his response was brilliant

Jason Richmond 59:28
in that perfect world, we can have those conversations and it would be very comfortable in the world we were in right now. What’s not what’s not quite there, right? So subtly and comfortably being able to have a conversation with someone about them potentially needing some additional support is is sensitive, you have to be really sort of thoughtful and careful. My rule of thumb is that you know those types of conversations typically require a bit of a relationship in order for for you to give me that kind of advice, we’d have to know each other well enough for me to think that it was genuine coming from you. And for me to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable with you to say, Yeah, I am struggling. And I would welcome that advice. That leads us

Leanne Elliott 1:00:13
nicely onto our sixth trend, which again, I’m sure not necessarily come as a surprise to regular listeners of the podcast Trend number six, leadership and culture. So we’re currently finishing off our own research at the moment oblong that looks at the relationships between leadership constructs or behaviors, employee engagement and wellbeing specifically in hybrid and remote work environments. Again, it’s a catchy title, I’m working on it. But nearly finding that we found already is that employees are really looking for leaders to be investing in their own well being as leaders. So employees want to see those positive behaviors rolled modeled in the leaders in their business. And Jason agrees that this type of role modeling is crucial in the future of wellbeing.

Jason Richmond 1:00:57
The great thing about our current society is the fact that there are so many tools and resources that are out there, many of which are available on a direct to consumer way, kind of like headspace is, members can go and pay for a subscription themselves to headspace, if they like. So your ability to mention of what a meaningful impact it’s had for you, as an example, maybe signposting for that person say, Oh, that’s interesting. Or if they are interested in that, then they’ll ask you a question will tell me how that works. I’ve never meditated. What, what does that what is that? Like? What does mindfulness mean? Or what does it mean to you? Or how do you use it? That I think the great thing about the tool is the fact that it has, it’s such a broad tool in that it has focused music. So if you just want to leverage music, if you want to work on your movement, and start having more movement, physical movement in your life, there are tools built within to help motivate you for those things. Same is true with sleep, which is one of the most significant aspects of our mental health. There are sleep cast and sleep tools that help people get a good night’s sleep. And so it’s just so there’s so much application for it, that your ability to be able to share with someone how it’s impacted you, and especially if you can do so in a way that’s not like overly, that doesn’t require them to be overly vulnerable. I think that that might be a good way to do it sleeps and easy thing to talk about, exercise these things talk about. So you might start there, and then you’ll be able to work in the idea oh, and by the way, it also helps people with anxiety, it also helps people with depression, I think that would be a brilliant way to start. Um, you know,

Leanne Elliott 1:02:36
it’s not just leaders that need to role model these behaviors. It’s frontline managers, too, because these frontline managers are often the people that will set the tone for our culture. Somebody I spoke to recently said, you know, line managers are often the culture keepers, which I quite liked. One of my favorite definitions is word of workplace culture, is that workplace culture is defined by the worst behaviors tolerated. So we know that any kind of workplace that lacks basic civility, respect, that is going to lead to emotional exhaustion, to greater conflict. And of course, you know, withdraw, which which those three things actually together are the key pillars of burnout. So we really need to train our minds not only to support people in their own well being, but also from a commercial and legal point of view, risk, any grievances appearing it as well in the workplace. So managers don’t just need to roll one of these behaviors, they need to police them to his Jason for more on training managers.

Jason Richmond 1:03:36
Yes, that is the that is the challenge for anybody who’s managing people. And it’s so funny, because the reality is that the frontline manager is often the first person who recognizes when someone’s in trouble. They, they’re the person who’s overseeing the work that someone does. If someone needs time off, they have to come to this person. If there are, if there’s conflict between that person and a co worker, the manager, frontline manager is going to be the first to hear about that, right? So the manager has a front row seat to impairment, so to speak. And and we trained people, we train supervisors, and managers on how to have a constructive conversation with people, the ability to be able to sit down with someone and in a very non judgmental way. Talk about the behaviors that you’ve seen. Talk about what you’ve witnessed, and then open the door for a conversation you would be amazed at, at the amount of information and how easily people share. If they feel like you’re asking because you really care. If you’re noticing, hey, you know what, I am worried about you. Here’s what I’ve been seeing. How are things you would be amazed at how many people are responsive to that how many people are like oh my gosh, thank you for asking, or you’ll get enough information for you to take that next step. I don’t think that I think you said Where’s where’s the line? The line to me is that a manager should care and manager should intervene and express that care point them to the many benefits that an employer is offering kind of like headspace health or an EAP, or any other benefit that might be appropriate at that moment. I

Al Elliott 1:05:16
don’t want to go on about this, but the worst Samaritans, which basically meant they were professional, we’re not professional, but we were volunteer listeners in a Listening service in the UK. And one of the greatest things about that was explaining how you can sort of distance yourself from the some of the potentially horrific stuff you hear on the phone from callers, and your everyday life. And I won’t go into the ins and outs. But if you are interested in that, then look up Samaritans, because it is really, really interesting. So I asked Jason from headspace a bit more about how non trained people can establish these kinds of boundaries, the line

Jason Richmond 1:05:47
really is not getting involved in whatever the issue is, and not taking ownership of whatever the issue is, because therapists are taught as part of our training to have really good boundaries, and to and to not own somebody’s else’s else’s issues. A non trained person who asks how someone’s doing and then here’s of very sad or, or horrific kinds of situations that someone might be experiencing at that time, it’s hard not to want to say, oh, my gosh, how can I help? How can I, you know, like, Oh, you’re going to be kicked out of your home, can I give you a loan, that would be terrible thing for a manager to do, right? Don’t, you can’t own the problem, you can care. And you can help them get to a place where they can get help. But I think a good healthy boundary between a manager and and someone they’re managing is probably pretty healthy.

Leanne Elliott 1:06:44
So all culture audit, the RX seven is based on a lot of well being research and literature. And one of the foundation that comes up every single time we do an audit with a business is resources. And that includes providing manageable workloads, which I know is really tough, especially in today’s climate, especially with the ongoing fight for talent. After speaking to rain, it really does seem to be a universal challenge.

Ryan Hopkins 1:07:12
The biggest cause of stress in the workplace is workload, not a lack of anything. And the traditional approach to fixing people in the workplace is to give them more to do as you should consider, if you’re a glass of water, and your glass is already filled up to the top pour in something else, the glass, you’re just going to make a mess on the table. You will you are the mess on the table. What we can do is actually look at the glass and consider what’s in there. If this piece is too large, how do we configure the work? Probably how do we consider the digital boundaries? How can we give people space time flexibility, autonomy. So if you’re going to do anything, today, it’s something so simple, but if you auto schedule your meetings to finish by 10 minutes early, and you’ve got six meetings per day, say, Do you know how much time you save per year, nearly six work weeks per year, per person. So when we configure the tech and the environment around us, it gives us space. Because you already know that an apple was a packet of crisps that getting off your butt has been sitting on it all day that call in the loved one is better than being isolated and head down all day. We set the space to do that. And that’d be the biggest gift that you can give someone today. And then you can use his amazing solutions, applications, weapons, always incredible. People hear that changing the game, by the precursor to all of that is a bit of space. We do that and then we give people he goes, he goes, Steve, here’s some time you’re allowed take that time, prioritize that time, build your day around it, we trust you to focus on outcomes.

Leanne Elliott 1:08:45
Managing by outcome seems to me like the obvious solution to any managers or leaders that have beef around Walmart, around remote working around technology. You know, I think, yes, fair enough. People could have more than one job, if you don’t have eyes on them. People might go on these push trips, remember that were the week for a while back girl. You know, they could go abroad and work remotely and you have no idea. They could be using chat GPT for a proportion of their work, and you have no idea. But if we’re managing by outcomes, from a commercial perspective, we know what we need to achieve to stay on track. So how those outcomes are achieved, doesn’t really matter. You know, in the in the big picture of things. My concern more comes from if there are people out there that are working more than one job remotely the impact that’s going to have on them and that could be another job. It could be a significant side hustle. You know, how is that going to impact on their resilience on their families on their recovery time and managing those conflicting priorities that I think is something we need to be very, very aware of. Ryan also brings up some of these very topical conversations that are happening around working from home and the integration of work and life.

Ryan Hopkins 1:10:00
because you can take a horse for wellbeing, water, but you can’t make a drink. So you can create the space and all these things a business can, but then it’s down to the individual. But you can encourage them, you can show them the way you can get leaders who exemplify this behavior. So this for me is the work, the future of work we want to work into tech is the issue, but also the solution. 89% of people are working outside traditional work hours now. But I think it’s 64% of people are doing personal stuff inside of work hours. So find me someone that hasn’t done there on him, one of them company all hands on off on your life. That’s cool. We seem to configure the work forget work life balance doesn’t exist. It’s life, which work is one part of, and it certainly isn’t the first part. And if we’re going to use work life balance as us life work. Because if you need to prioritize the things that you need to do to be your best self each day, because that’s my main rule, Paul says, If you don’t love yourself, how the hell are you gonna love somebody else?

Leanne Elliott 1:10:54
A man, I told you RuPaul, Charles is one of the greatest philosophers of our time. And if you don’t believe me, then believe the future of well being leader at Deloitte like to

Al Elliott 1:11:06
believe you, I do. And I did. It did make me smile, when I was going through the notes of this thing that Ryan brought up, I love it, no less on future trends is going to be complete without also talking about AI. So number seven is technology and AI. The one thing we haven’t quite worked out yet is the sort of the idea of privacy, the idea of how do we not share information, particularly if you’re using a cloud based language or large language model, where you are potentially uploading sensitive information to that something we’re not waste now, but but to be fair, it’s only really been commercially usable for the last sort of six, eight months. So that will come. I asked Jason about the technology and the AI behind headspace the,

Jason Richmond 1:11:48
our our use of augmented intelligence and augmented meaning that we have artificial intelligence that’s running in the background of everything we do. Our coaching interaction is done via discreet and confidential chat communication. So it feels very much like texting with a family member or friend, every single text and chat that happens on our system rolls into our AI and it feeds this incredibly large database that we’ve built over the last decade. What that does, we build algorithms and predictive models, that that information bounces up against that information produces meaningful insight to our care team, in real time, while they’re working with members. The care team then gets that information and decides the appropriate time how to contextualize that how to make that a natural part of the conversation. So we don’t want the AI actually doing any of the care. I want our care team doing that. But we want to power them with absolutely everything that we can in that process. And that’s that’s really what distinguishes us. So it’s the immediacy, it’s the broad nature of what we do. And it’s the technology.

Leanne Elliott 1:12:54
So technology and AI is something we have been chatting to your guests about, for a very long time that I had a dive back into the truth and lies archive and found some clips, some that you’ve heard, some that you haven’t from previous guests. First, we have Dr. Wayne Sherman from Hogan assessment systems,

Ryne Sherman 1:13:12
right? Most countries have anti discrimination hiring walls where you can’t hire, because that’s the real concern. Right? The concern is that these AI will cause adverse impact in hiring. And there is some legitimate concern there. So there’s, the topic of AI is so expansive, that there’s so many different tools that the go in and that are part of this, but some of the tools that I’ve looked at automatic resume readers years ago, that’s kind of just been several years now, Amazon had a tool that was recruiting engineers, and they had to get rid of it, because the tool that the AI tool that they built, was it was just picking men, it was just like, oh, we know what makes a good engineer, man. And then it was just, you know, finding men and only trying to recruit men for these for these jobs. And that’s a problem of that’s, that’s actually not a problem of the algorithm, like people blame the algorithm. All the algorithms, you know, are the algorithms are the real problem. There’s, this one was a really well known woman who’s written several books about sort of like the war against algorithms and all that. And it’s, the algorithms aren’t the problem, right? The algorithms are just trying to reflect what you tell it to reflect, right? So if you say, This is what I want in this job, then it will go it will go find that so incredibly well, that it will uncover biases that perhaps you didn’t even know that you had. And so that’s what these algorithms are really doing. And then the case of the Amazon case, there’s other cases to where there’s phone interviews or video interviews, right. And it’s great reporting by some some investigative journalists, who actually trained actors to do phone interviews, do these automated interviews over and over again, the same way right to do the exact same I interview over and over again. But they would change little things, right, they would change something in the background, right? Whether there would be a picture or whether it’d be dark, or whether it’d be well lit, or whether they were wearing a burka, or whether they’re wearing a scarf, or whether they’re wearing glasses, that would change all of these little features. And then we get very different personality scores based on those little feature changes, which tells you that there’s really something problematic about using AI in that way, you shouldn’t get a different personality score if you’re wearing glasses or not, we actually have a ton of data on this, there’s no there’s no difference in whether you wear glasses or not in your personality. So so that’s one of the that’s one of the concerns is that people are using these tools in ways that are really biased, really inaccurate.

Leanne Elliott 1:15:40
So those are our seven future wellbeing trends, and I think could be summarized by wellbeing is here to stay. So long as we start to prove its impact and ROI. What do you think? Oh,

Al Elliott 1:15:54
yeah, I mean, I realize everything in business, isn’t it, you’re not gonna do anything without ROI. So let’s just let’s once and for all put this to bed and go wellbeing has an ROI, you just need to find it. Okay, rant over.

Leanne Elliott 1:16:09
So to recap those seven and future trends for you. Trend number one, the ongoing D stigmatization of mental health.

Al Elliott 1:16:16
Trend number two, employee engagement and connection is key.

Leanne Elliott 1:16:20
Trend number three metrics and measurement.

Al Elliott 1:16:23
Trend number four, work, the workplace needs to be personalized and customized to individuals.

Leanne Elliott 1:16:29
Trend number five, we need to take a more holistic approach to wellbeing.

Al Elliott 1:16:33
Trend number six is all about leadership and culture. And Trend

Leanne Elliott 1:16:37
number seven, technology and AI will continue to change the world, including the world of well being

Al Elliott 1:16:44
well, there you have it at this stage of the podcast normally say that’s a lot, but only seven. And we’ve done I think we’ve done a good deep dive into each one of those. If you’re interested in connecting with some of our guests, there’s more there’s there’s all the details in the show notes. But in their own words, this is how you can find out a bit more about Louise from business in the community.

Louise Aston 1:17:02
So basically go to businesses in the communities website, be it seeds.org.uk, you’ll find the report, which has got an accompanying deck. So if you want to engage your own executive suite, you can do that. There’s also a collection of really engaging videos from a variety of business leaders, including heavy show of David Wright, Chief Engineer at National Grid, and our own CEO, Mary McLeod. There’s also an elevator pitch animation, which is very useful. So everything to do with the campaign is on the RT C’s website. And there’s more coming down the line in September.

Al Elliott 1:17:46
And this is how you can find out more from Ryan from Deloitte

Ryan Hopkins 1:17:49
Bay. I’m the host of the Audacious Goals club, LinkedIn Live series bringing together amazing people to be incredibly audacious. And I developed a well being video series called toilet very well bear. Because I think it’s this big, complex subjects. But actually, wellbeing is no little thing. It’s made up of small things. And for me, it’s as simple as going to the toilet we go at times every day. So I made this little video series, and I’ve done about 70 episodes so far. Yeah, so hit me up on LinkedIn, Vine, Hopkins, or future of well being on Instagram and Tiktok. And yeah, I hope you found this helpful, I appreciate you for having me.

Leanne Elliott 1:18:27
And we will of course, leave the links to both Jason and headspace health in the show notes so you can find out more. So those are seven future trends on wellbeing that we are already starting to see. And we will see more and more over the next two to five years. I personally am excited. I’m excited that there is a conversation around wellbeing that is more dominant and public in the world of work. I’m also very excited that this theme of evidence and data is really starting to gain traction and so many more voices in the welding space are making this point so hurrah to them. So thank you to Louise, Ryan and Jason. It has been wonderful to have you on the show and share your incredible insights. Next week. We are bringing you a slightly slower some of it but it’ll be our first episode in August. We hope you’re taking time out to relax to recharge. If you’ve been listening to us at all, hopefully you are so we thought next week we will bring you some lighter entertainment and maybe some sources of what be the right word owl self care, reflection.

Al Elliott 1:19:34
And all in all in in poetry. We’ll be writing the entire thing and doing our own home written poetry poems.

Leanne Elliott 1:19:42
You might even have a pina colada in hand.

Al Elliott 1:19:46
Wow, look forward to it. See you next week. Bye bye.