Episode 328 · 18 August 2026 · 53:55

Am I the Workplace A**hole? Summer Sessions #4, with Dr Jake Tuber

Featuring Jake Tuber

#asshole #game #firing #grief #employee #management #conflict #office

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How the game works: asshole, not, or double asshole
news roundup#game #asshole #verdict
Dilemma 1 — The Tragic Firing (Leanne's): the 22-year-old who lost both parents
news roundup#firing #grief #employee
Verdict 1 — 2½ assholes
news roundup#verdict #asshole-rating
Dilemma 2 — The Public Ultimatum (Jake's): the outspoken team member vs the passive-aggressive director
news roundup#management #conflict #ultimatum
Verdict 2 — the ultimatum is the problem
news roundup#verdict #asshole-rating
Dilemma 3 — The $1,800 Stolen Chair (Al's): first-come, first-served, and the police
news roundup#theft #office #police
Verdict 3 — unanimously NOT the asshole
news roundup#verdict #legal #asshole

Show notes

Am I the Workplace A**hole? — Workplace Dilemmas on Trial (Summer Sessions #4, with Dr Jake Tuber)

Summer Sessions #4 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are ditching the workplace news to put workplace behaviour on trial. Joined by returning guest host and friend of the show, organisational psychologist Dr Jake Tuber, they're borrowing one of the internet's favourite formats — Am I the A**hole? — to dissect three genuine, real-life workplace conflicts and deliver the verdicts: asshole, not, or double asshole.

Expect a $1,800 office chair, a firing nobody can agree on, an ultimatum that backfires, and at least one heated debate about whether Americans actually understand tariffs. (They don't. Leanne has the receipts.)

⚖️ The Dilemmas on Trial

1. The Tragic Firing (brought by Leanne) A VP of sales at a software company fires a 22-year-old sales development rep whose parents both died in a car crash. The company gave him one month of paid leave; weeks after returning, his performance is "severely lacking" — no cold calls, no outreach — so they let him go on a Friday afternoon. He tells them to go f**k themselves and walks out. The VP's boyfriend says she's the asshole. Is she?

Dr Jake Tuber: ASSHOLE — "It's not that they're holding them to task for not doing their job well... you can't take a little discomfort in a couple of unpleasant or hard counselling-style conversations... To me, that just seems very much like, this is emotionally uncomfortable, I'd rather just get rid of them."
Leanne: ASSHOLE — "Both of their parents passed away in a tragic accident... you're given one month to get over it. That makes you an asshole."
Al: SMALL ASSHOLE — "This person's VP... someone's losing money here."
Final score: 2½ assholes. Leanne: "They're never going to get back to the point of normality that they left that job previously. It is a new normal."

2. The Public Ultimatum (brought by Jake) A 29-year-old first-time manager has an outspoken team member who keeps challenging the director directly — even after being told to raise concerns through her manager first. After the team member gives the director "as good as she got" on a call, the manager tells her: follow my direction or rethink your future with the company. The team thinks he's siding with the director. Is he the asshole?

Leanne: SMALL ASSHOLE — "My issue, where I think they're assholes, is the ultimatum. It's the ultimatum that's assholey."
Al: BIT OF AN ASSHOLE — "Without the ultimatum, they would not be the asshole. With the ultimatum, they are a bit of an asshole."
Dr Jake Tuber: NOT THE ASSHOLE — "The ultimatum is obnoxious, but it's still... if I have to pick from the binary, I think they're not the asshole in this situation."
Leanne's pro-tip from experience: when she was promoted above a peer who kept escalating past her, the fix was her manager backing her: "everything goes through Leanne."

3. The $1,800 Stolen Chair (brought by Al) A new sales hire brings in his own Herman Miller Aeron chair ($1,800) because the office chair is uncomfortable. On day four it's missing — a colleague is sitting on it. The owner says chairs are "first come, first served." He tells the guy to give it back or he'll call the police. He calls the police. The colleague gets arrested, loses his security licence and his industry career. The new hire gets fired on the spot for pressing charges — and walks out carrying his chair. His question: am I the asshole for making this dude lose his job?

Dr Jake Tuber: NOT THE ASSHOLE — "I'm 100% in this person's corner. I think their coworker's an asshole. I think their boss is an asshole for saying, sorry, chairs are first come, first serve."
Leanne: NOT THE ASSHOLE — "I believe one asshole and another asshole cancel each other out... it's my chair, dude."
Al: NOT THE ASSHOLE — after briefly forgetting the format mid-verdict: "the guy who stole the chair is not the asshole."
Unanimous: NOT THE ASSHOLE. Bonus legal debate: is occupying someone else's chair theft, breaking and entering, or squatting? (Jake: "borrowing".)

🧠 What We Learned (Between the Verdicts)

The ultimatum is the tell. A manager who leans on "do this or else" is often a manager who isn't confident in their own authority — strong managers say "cut it out" and walk away. (Al's pub theory.)
One month is not enough. Losing both parents at 22 is a life-transformative event, not a bad week. Leanne's rule: the workplace should be gearing up to welcome back a transformed employee, not a recovering one — and the "new normal" deserves more than a few weeks.
Read the room before you escalate. Bypassing your line manager to challenge the director might feel brave — but it can read as insubordination, no matter how right you are. The manager's job is to filter, explain, and manage up.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

A — REVIEWFair warning, this episode may contain some coarse language. I say may, but almost certainly will. Listener discretion is advised. Leanne?

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome back to our Summer Sessions. As you know, for the next few weeks we are taking a little break from the workplace news and the slightly heavier topics to bring you something a bit more fun. The sort of episode you can stick on while, you know, you're driving to the beach, maybe you're lying on a sunbed, or Floating in the pool.

A — REVIEWYeah, because nobody wants to listen to a work podcast in August. And if we're being honest, we don't really want to make them. So instead, welcome to Summer Session Episode 2. Today we're putting workplace behaviour on trial. We're borrowing a little inspiration from one of the internet's favourite formats, Am I the A**hole? AITA? This is on Reddit, I think, except every single dilemma today actually happened at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd helping us decide who's in the right, who's in the wrong, and whether anyone actually cares It's our good friend of the show and our favorite returning guest host, Dr. Jake Tuber.

A — REVIEWHello, Mr. Tuber. Dr. Jake.

C — REVIEWIt's August. It's America. We're here working hard. Okay? I don't know why you slackers think you can just take the whole month off while we just keep the global economy humming for you. But you know what? We're here putting in the work.

Leanne ElliottOh, yes. So, yeah, because the USA famously this year has done wonders for the global economy. That's why we all need a frickin month off.

C — REVIEWWe, we came in, we won the World Cup. You know, we hosted it, we won it. That's what I've been told here. We won the cup. It was a great win. Okay, we won the cup. It wasn't— it wasn't a shiny gold cup. I thought it was going to be gold. You know what it was? It was a cup. It was—

Leanne ElliottMr. Trump, I'm going to stop you there just while we very quickly go to a break to hear from our lovely sponsors, because they get angry if we don't do it in a certain time period. And then we'll come back.

A — REVIEWAlso, we're just going to gloss over the fact that our sponsors are also based in America and we don't know their political views. See you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

C — REVIEWNice.

A — REVIEWCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello, hello, and welcome back. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you of course by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destinations for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.

A — REVIEWMy name's Al. I'm a business owner. And normally we're here to help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures. But not this week. No, we can't be bothered. Can't be bothered. But joining us today is organizational psychologist, returning guest host, and friend of the show, Jake Tuber.

C — REVIEWHey, thank you. It's so good to be back. Everything is great. You know, we won the World Cup. We did a great job hosting. We won the Iran war. And then we won it again, and then we won it again, and it looks like we're gonna win it again next week. So I am just here on behalf of all Americans to say, welcome to the show. Are we the asshole? Let's find out. I think we are. I think we are.

Leanne ElliottI think we are.

A — REVIEWWell, before we pressed record, actually we did press record, but I've been told I can't use this. We were talking about though, we literally, Leanne and I, are the asshole because if you're in America, then if I remember correctly, then you get, I think it's 6 hours off for summer. And we basically take the month off, don't we? And we just do— just everyone just goes, nah, I'm not doing any work, I'm going to the beach. And, um, I don't know whether it's jealousy or whether it's just a fact that— no, I think it's jealousy. I think that's it. You weren't happy about that, Dr. Jake.

C — REVIEWNo, no, I— listen, I'm— I've been pushing for organizations to consider a 4-day work week, an amended schedule for, you know, the federal government to shut down in August for, gosh, for over a decade now. And just every year when I get the chance to talk to my European friends and it's late July And they're like, yeah, so we'll have to pick this up again in September. And I'm like, September? What are you talking about? I'm gonna age 3 years by then. But no, you guys just disappear. You hang out. Meanwhile, we're over here keeping the world afloat as always. And do we get credit? No, we get bashed on European shows all the time. But listen, it is what it is. I'm gonna live through it. I've accepted it. I think I've just gone through all 5 stages of grief in the time we've been recording. I'm ready. I'm feeling good.

A — REVIEWAnd to be fair, to be fair, you've got to, you've got to work August because those tariffs won't impose themselves, will they? So someone's got to be there to do it.

C — REVIEWIt does seem like they're starting to impose themselves, to be honest with you. It seems like, it seems like we could just hang out and, and some reciprocal tariffs would just show up at this point. So we may, we may have laid the foundation. Maybe we can take the month off now.

A — REVIEWWho knows? Incidentally, I did see, I'm sure we've talked about this, and I know you will have seen this, the, the YouTube interview with the person on the street talking about tariffs, and they've actually got the import-export person, and they explained how tariffs work. And is that what a lot of people in— and this is not throwing shade, because I think people in the US and the UK and Europe would think this— do they think that the tariff applies to the person who is trying to import, trying to export?

C — REVIEWI think they believe that the tariff is a tax that essentially gets levied on the foreign countries. Yes, I think that's I think that's what they fundamentally think. You can't rely on Americans for sort of general knowledge when it comes to government operations. This is— I wonder how many Americans understand how our graduated tax system works. Like, nobody does. Nobody. You don't get taught these things in grade school. All we learned about was George Washington finally liberating us from you Brits and that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Those are the only 2 things that people leave High school knowing here in the US. That's it.

A — REVIEWYeah, we did that. Mitochondria. Although you say miter, we— I think it might be a tomato, tomato thing. Yeah, even in GCSE biology, that is the phrase that sticks in your head there.

C — REVIEWThe powerhouse of the cell. That's the only thing I remember from high school is the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. I don't, I don't know what that means. All I know is the— it's the little part of the cell that looks kind of like, uh, uh, like a Tylenol pill, like an aspirin. Um, and it's the powerhouse. That's all I remember.

A — REVIEWI did A-level biology, so I can tell you actually it's part of the Krebs cycle, which is oxidative phosphorylation, where they turn ADP ADP into ATP. I also need to tell you that I also failed my biology, so that may not necessarily be correct. You've not spoken for a long time.

Leanne ElliottI'm just— sounds so impressive. I've got nothing to bring to this.

C — REVIEWI think me and all the listeners are learning how Al once wooed Leanne, which was just making up scientific bullshit out at a bar, and it's still working to this day.

Leanne ElliottJake, do you know what? Al was— Al actually did quite well when I met him. He somehow managed to be quite cool, I think because he was building his business at the time, was going quite well. So he was kind of, you know, Al about a whole thing. Um, but when we went to— we went to Latvia once on a holiday, and, um, we were sat at this bar because our flight got cancelled because of the snow, and there's nothing else to do because it was snowing. So we literally sat in the bar all afternoon, and Al started talking to this very beautiful Latvian girl who must have been in her early to mid-20s. Beautiful, beautiful girl, chatting along. And Al, do you want to— do you want to share the chat-up line that you, you tried to go with?

A — REVIEWWell, to be fair, there was 3 girls there, and because the bar was quiet and we were British, they're a bit interested in— you know, a little bit interested in us. And so I said, have you been to the UK? They said, yes, we've been to a place called Yeadon, which is near Leeds. And I think it was Yeadon, it was somewhere around there, but near Leeds. And I was like, oh really? Oh, I used to live in Leeds. They're like, oh really? What'd you do in Leeds? I went, oh well, and I told them. And I said— and it went quiet, and I thought something needs to be— someone needs to say something. So I said, did you know that, um, Yeadon is one point of the rhubarb triangle?

Leanne ElliottWhat?

A — REVIEWAnd they were like, I'm sorry, what? And I went, well, in Yorkshire, there are 3 main triangle growers, areas that triangle growers, cities.

Leanne ElliottRhubarb growers.

A — REVIEWSorry, rhubarb growers, not triangle growers. Rhubarb growers. And Yeadon's one of them. And one of the girls just walked away. The other 2 girls sitting there going, uh, she just walked off.

C — REVIEWShe'd heard that line before. She's heard the rhubarb line before. Yeah, that's a common line.

Leanne ElliottSo we're down to 2.

A — REVIEWWe're down to 2. Leanne's looking at me like, this is going to be good. Do you know what I mean?

Leanne ElliottI'm just there sipping my drink and eating my popcorn going, I can't wait to see how this turns out. She's got her opera gloves on.

A — REVIEWGlasses on and everything. And so then the other— so I was trying, I panicked. I was trying to still impress them. I went, oh, they've got huge warehouses, you know, which they just grow rhubarb. And they're like, sometimes they're like sort of 5 kilometers big, these warehouses. And the second one walked away, not a word, walked away. And the last one just looked at me and I went, if you walk into the warehouse, sometimes you can hear them grow. They moan like this.

Leanne ElliottMm.

A — REVIEWNeedless to say, Jake, the third one just grabbed a glass and just fucked off. I was like, and Leanne's like, you're never gonna leave me, are you? Because you've got no other opportunity.

C — REVIEWYou know what, it's really their loss because little do they know that is actually the most interesting thing that happens in the UK. So now they're going to be searching the rest of their lives for some sort of excitement. Uh, yeah, yeah, that's—

Leanne ElliottHey, we're on, we're on a record run of prime ministers, Jake. That's interesting.

C — REVIEWThis is true.

Leanne ElliottYou just got a new one just for the lols.

A — REVIEWAs of this moment, morning, another one.

C — REVIEWOh, this is exciting.

Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah.

C — REVIEWBy the time this podcast airs, we'll probably be 3 down. Finally, a northerner. Yeah, but let's hear from another region. Let's see if they can do any better, right? Well, why not? Yeah, that's good. Uh, wow, Al. Okay, so it's a shiny dot. You locked in. You locked into Leanne is all I'm gonna say there. If that's, if that's your approach, uh, you, uh, you did well. And Leanne, kudos to you for sticking by your man.

A — REVIEWI have no rizz. Anyway, should we— no, hang on, before we go on, tell us, Jake, what's going on in your life? You said you were busy. What are you busy with?

C — REVIEWOh, busy. Finished up writing the final draft of the book, which we're not allowed to advertise on this show until it's ready to be advertised on this show. But that went off to the publisher. I've been doing some travel around the glorious United States here. Doing some workshops of various kinds, some talks here and there. And yeah, just trying to be a summer dad with kids out of school in camps. Did a little time at the beach a couple weeks ago, which was, you know, miserable for everybody. Otherwise, pretty, pretty standard stuff.

A — REVIEWIt does feel a North American thing, the kids camp, doesn't it? You see that in all the movies.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

A — REVIEWThe kids will go off to camp for like 2 weeks.

Leanne ElliottI had a couple of friends who did it like Camp USA. They went over to be like camp counselors. That's what they're called.

C — REVIEWMm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottFor like a summer.

C — REVIEWI did it. There's a couple of great organizations that— be UNAC and others— that pull sort of really qualified people who would be great camp counselors and bring them in as international staff and counselors to camps across the US. It's a wonderful program. It gives kids in the US access to people of different cultures and backgrounds, gives other people a chance to come and see the US. Summer camps here in the US are about as positive and wholesome and genuine an environment that exists anywhere on the planet. Um, so it is really a win-win.

Leanne ElliottIs it like the movies?

C — REVIEWVery much so. Yeah, it's just like Parent Trap. Everybody comes over from the UK and finds their long-lost twin that they didn't know existed and then ships them back to Britain.

Leanne ElliottAmazing.

C — REVIEWYeah, it's pretty great.

A — REVIEWI only know of summer camps, and also Catskills is the other thing I associate with Americans and summer, but that's only because I watched, um, Marvelous Mrs. Maisel or something.

C — REVIEWThe Catskills are, uh, are only about an hour and a half, uh, north of me, Al. So when you guys come to the US for our big live US recording, we can do a quick drive up.

Leanne ElliottDo you know what? We need to start looking into that because I'm not sure that while Mr. Trump is president, we'll be allowed in.

C — REVIEWI'm going to give a big prediction here. Okay. This is— I'm going out on a limb. I'm going to eat crow for this when it doesn't happen, but I'm going to put my foot out there. So all of you on Polymarket and Kalshi with your international betting odds, you heard it here first. I'm going to shift the markets. I think Trump is going to resign before his term ends.

Leanne ElliottFrom your lips, my friend.

C — REVIEWI think he's going to resign. He's going to resign before his term ends. I think at some point in 2020, probably 2028, he's going to resign. That's my prediction. The short answer is his life as president is about to get a lot less fun when the U.S. Congress changes hands and his party that has been dying to walk away from him, a lot of them, are going to finally see him as a lame duck and just not going to get the support. And he's going to want to write the narrative as a winner, and he's going to write the narrative of, I couldn't take it anymore, I'm going to go off and retire on my own terms, I don't need this shit anymore, and step away rather than deal with, you know, the actual worst parts of the job, which is, you know, governing with an unfavorable Congress and lots of subpoenas. So I think that it is much more likely that he will just say, screw it, I don't need this, uh, if I can't stick around for a third term, than actually try to just stick it out and spend his time doing the hardest parts of public service. That's my guess. Um, he'll probably say it's due to health or age, which it very well could be, right? The guy's old and not in great health. Um, but that's my— that's the short version of my prediction.

Leanne ElliottSo if we plan for like summer 2028, we should get in the country then.

C — REVIEWYeah.

A — REVIEWOkay, Lee, what's— what— how's it— how does this episode work? We're like 16 minutes in and we haven't even started the episode yet.

Leanne ElliottThis is how it always goes. It's fine. It's fine. So we're doing Am I the A-hole, which is very famous on, on Reddit and I think some other platforms as well. So basically, we've all brought 2 genuine workplace dilemmas. I'll be amazed if we get through more than one each.

C — REVIEWYes.

Leanne ElliottNobody knows what anyone else has brought, so we're going to be surprised. We're going to take it in turns to read one out. And before anyone says a word, once we finish reading it out, We're gonna each decide whether we think the person, uh, was fair enough, that's all right, and was completely out of order, they are the asshole, or we don't quite know yet. So maybe if we go asshole, not, don't know.

A — REVIEWCan we not do double asshole?

Leanne ElliottDouble asshole?

A — REVIEWThen they're both assholes. We have a shared responsibility.

Leanne ElliottOh.

A — REVIEWSo you could have asshole, not, or cheeks. Could be the bits that it's about.

Leanne ElliottSo asshole, not, cheeks.

A — REVIEWI think that's a bit disgusting. Let's just go back to asshole, not, or double asshole, DA.

C — REVIEWYou made it very physical, Al. I don't think anyone else was thinking about it quite so literally, but, you know, glad to know where you stand.

A — REVIEWYeah. I'm so sorry about that imagery that I've just conjured up.

Leanne ElliottSo if you're listening, play along as well. Make your own judgment before we reveal ours. See whether you agree or whether we just completely lost the plot. And the funny thing is we were going to drink during this recording.

C — REVIEWI'm so glad we decided not to.

Leanne ElliottI'm sorry.

C — REVIEWAre you guys not totally hammered now also? Is this just me? I thought that we were all showing up totally sloshed for this. Am I— was I off base here? It's 9 in the morning. Like, I had to wait a whole 2 hours, you know?

A — REVIEWOh man, I wish we had— we recorded one yesterday. We did have a drink.

C — REVIEWCan you imagine the 3 of us trying to do a drunken recording? We would be— it would be like, Al's, all right, we're 16 hours in. We haven't really started the topic yet. Do you guys want to do this? And I'll just be asleep in the corner.

A — REVIEWAmazing. What was the, um, what were the, the comedy double act from the '70s used to record, um, British used to record drunk, uh, very, very cook, um, it'll come to me. Carry on, Lee.

Leanne ElliottSo shall I go first?

A — REVIEWYes.

Leanne ElliottAnd then, and then Jakey, and then you, Al?

A — REVIEWLovely.

Leanne ElliottOkay, I'm so excited, I'm so excited for this.

A — REVIEWGo on, go on, go, go, go.

Leanne ElliottThis is so awful. Am I the asshole for firing Firing an employee after their parents died. I'm the VP of sales at a software company, and one of our sales development reps' parents passed away at the beginning of April. Sadly, they were involved in a car crash and both lost their lives. Now, the employee in question is very young, 22-year-old guy, and has been with us for about 10 months. He's a great employee, and we were thinking about promoting him. His job is high paying for a new graduate role, about 90,000 with commission and base, so we expect a lot from this position. Because of the accident, we let him take 1 month paid leave of absence from work, and he's returned a few weeks ago and his performance is severely lacking. He's very unmotivated, not cold calling, not reaching out to prospects for the last 2 to 3 weeks even, um, since coming back. Our whole management team has noticed this and we decided to let him go because we feel he'd need months and months to be able to produce again, and we just can't wait that long. We called him into a meeting on Friday afternoon and gave him the bad news.

A — REVIEWOh no.

Leanne ElliottHe was very calm and rude about it, told us to go fuck ourselves, and got up and went to his desk, grabbed a few things, and left. I thought this was very, very unprofessional and extremely rude. I told my boyfriend about all of this, and he says that I'm the asshole. Am I?

A — REVIEWOh, so we've got to decide. This is that the— so the boss is the asshole, the employees are the asshole, or it's a mixture of both? Is that what we're deciding?

Leanne ElliottNo. So, so is this— this person is asking, am I an asshole? So basically saying yes, no, or maybe.

A — REVIEWOkay.

Leanne ElliottSo what do we think, Jake? Is this person an asshole?

C — REVIEWI think so. I think they're the asshole. That's my initial verdict.

A — REVIEWOh, maybe.

C — REVIEWReally?

A — REVIEWNot 100% arse.

Leanne ElliottOkay, well, let's start with Jake then, who does believe this person is indeed an a-hole.

C — REVIEWI don't think that firing someone who's not doing their job makes you an asshole. Let me be very clear about that. It's the employee's responsibility and the employee's responsibility to agree on the terms of employment, etc. You know what? Maybe I'll take it back. I don't know if they're an asshole. I think they're kind of an idiot. I think that if you have someone who you see as likely— who's already been performing well, who has undergone a severe outlier event, who by all means, reasonably speaking, seems kind of depressed after this and understandable. The idea that you are going to get someone else in there that is going to be as good and they're going to be up to speed within the next couple of months where you could otherwise spend that time and maybe a little bit of money getting this person some help and then keeping them around and maybe earning the high performer, high potential employee's loyalty for a long time. I just think it's shortsighted. So unless this person has an ample talent supply waiting in the wings, that's plug and play. And can really put them in and really perform right off the get-go. I just think they're kind of kidding themselves thinking that they're going to somehow recover. I think the reason that I would say they're an asshole is because it's a short-sighted decision. It's also, I think they just don't want to deal with the uncomfortable, the discomfort of having to help a person in this situation and find them the right resources. And that's what sort of makes them the asshole to me. It's not that they're holding them to a Tasked for not doing their job well, that, that's fine. It's— you can't just— you can't take a little discomfort in a couple of unpleasant or hard counseling-style conversations and referring them out to counseling or their employee assistance program or whatnot. To me, that just seems very much like, uh, this is emotionally uncomfortable, I'd rather just get rid of them.

A — REVIEWOkay, let me give you my thoughts. Well, we don't have a whole lot of context on the company here, um, and so if it's a smallish company Then that, that loss in revenue is gonna, could have a massive impact and it could put lots of people's jobs, other people's jobs at risk. Because if they were a high performer, they'll be probably responsible for a large percentage of these sales leads coming in. So, and then the second thing is we also don't know whether it is a very high performing, high pressure job like working in the stock market, or whether you are like, um, this is like sales where it's a $100,000 commission. where there are people knocking on the door waiting to come back in. So I think it's a shared responsibility because the person I think should have come back and said, the person who lost their parents should have come back and said, I— or they should have had a conversation. They said, you're not ready. So that's the— and the other person should go, you're absolutely right. I'm not ready. Let me go part-time. Let me do this. Let me do that. So I am definitely coming at this from the corporate, the corporate jaws of greed. That's my side I'm coming from.

C — REVIEWI think that's a nice point about the size of the company and the potential impact of their loss of revenue. If it's a smaller organization, that one high performer's lack of performance is gonna have ripples that go beyond. And it's also important to recognize, as you've sort of jarred for me, the emotional contagion aspects of somebody who's really difficult to be around the office with. Even if we have a tremendous amount of sympathy or empathy, that's gonna bleed into the team environment. It's gonna have a rippling effect impact on others. And that's part of where, you know, performance goes just beyond the specific metrics. But ideally should be looking towards the right behavioral competencies in an organization around how you go about getting work done, not just what you accomplish. That said though, I just have a hard time believing that they can replace that revenue quickly enough by firing this person and hiring someone else of quality if they really think it's a couple of extra months of support that they need. So again, to me, yes, the intelligence of the decision hinges on their recruiting capabilities, their onboarding capabilities, how quickly they can integrate the next person. It's just hard for me to assume, just everything I know about what it takes to find someone who's really that great. And again, if this is someone who's demonstrated some real high potential and performance before this terrible accident happened, it's hard for me to assume that that's a rational recalibration, which is why I think they're probably just avoiding the emotional discomfort of having to grow and manage and help an employee like this and blaming it on, well, we can just find somebody else to do the job. I just don't think that you're going to find that person that quickly, realistically. But again, if the answer is yes there, that does change the situation. Lee, what do you think here?

Leanne ElliottI agree with everything you've said. I think there's 2 key things in this account that makes me think this person is an asshole. One, that both of their parents passed away in a tragic accident. This isn't losing one parent to a long-term illness where you've got some sense that it's coming. This is losing both of your parents unexpectedly as a 22-year-old new graduate, and you're given one month to get over it. That makes you an asshole. And I think the second thing as well, and I, I hear this talked about more— less with grief and more with, um, women coming back after having a baby— about how kind of your whole conversation around matrescence and why supporting women back into the the workplace isn't good enough is we just expect the workplace is almost gearing up to, to welcome back a recovering employee rather than a transformed employee, because they've gone through such a significant life event. Nothing is normal, nothing is the same. They will never get back to the point of normality that they left that job previously. They're never going to get back to that point. It is a— to use a cliché COVID phrase— it is a new normal. So I think I think there's much more we can be doing to support this person before we get to the point that it might not work out. And I think if all of this had been done and it was another 3 or 4 months down the line, I might be more inclined to agree with you, Al, and say maybe. But I think things like you were saying, like, like more flexible working, coming in for certain hours, maybe there's times of day whether they're better, maybe do some body doubling exercise in terms of the, the client outreach, maybe finding something else for them to do that's a bit more kind of paperwork-based or research-based that doesn't feel as maybe as confronting as trying to have a conversation with somebody as a normal person who's just lost both of their parents in a shock accident. I think there's things we could do to make this, make this more probable that they will get back to performance by changing the nature of their work and how they're working and getting the additional kind of counselling support as well in place. I think there's much more that could have been done because I ultimately agree with you, Jake, There's no, I think there's zero chance that they're gonna find somebody else. They're gonna recruit into this role, get them up and running within a few weeks, um, to the same level of, of revenue performance. Even commercially, I think it's a done deal.

C — REVIEWAnd Lee, what, what, what does it say to the other people in the organization who see someone who's done a decent job go through something really bad? Again, listen, if this is the States getting a typical sort of month off unplanned, again, who knows what their corporate policy around bereavement leave or something is. But if it's a typical unplanned thing, that's actually generous here in the US for a new employee to just get a month, 10 months into their tenure off. As, you know, as odd as that might seem to some listeners, that is probably going above and beyond in the eyes of the folks, the writer and the executive team at this organization. At the same time, though, what does that say to everyone else who's watching this happen? Like, I could be someone who's seen as an up-and-coming star, was brought in for the right reasons, doing well. One really bad thing happens and then a couple weeks of underperformance and suddenly there's no loyalty on their side. It's gonna be hard to get your best people to stick around after that. So that— I have one or two other thoughts, but Al, I wanna kick it back to you and see, uh, if this is causing you to, to dig in your heels further or to, to shift your thinking at all.

A — REVIEWI'm gonna slightly change my opinion to this person is a small asshole, not a gaping asshole. Okay. So that's what I'm gonna do.

C — REVIEWAgain, with the physical description.

Leanne ElliottBrilliant.

A — REVIEWBut so I've slightly changed from it's 50/50 to no, no, they are a little bit of an asshole. But, but I still stand by the fact that it's sales and whether it's a small company, big company, whatever, this person's VP, I think you said, Leanne, someone's losing money here.

Leanne ElliottDo you know, Jake, I had that written down as a note as well, that ripple effect in terms of how it'd be viewed in the organization by other members of the team, literally reducing them down to a dollar sign, aren't they? So yeah, I stand by it. I think this person, Given, given the context and, and how awful this is and the, the not much time passed, I think this person is an asshole.

A — REVIEWRight, so we've got 2 assholes and 1 small asshole, 1 half asshole.

C — REVIEWThat's the name of our show.

A — REVIEWFair enough. 2 and a half assholes is how it is. 2 and a half assholes. Oh, I love this. I love this. Okay, right, we're gonna, we're gonna go and take a very, very quick break, then we're coming back with Dr. Jake.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

A — REVIEWWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

A — REVIEWAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. Not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

A — REVIEWSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

C — REVIEWIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

A — REVIEWOh, I am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut thanks. But come back.

A — REVIEWYeah, come back. Definitely come back.

C — REVIEWBecause Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

A — REVIEWI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back if you have come back, and I apologize. I tell you what, whatever's in this episode, I can promise you there is an awful lot more on the cutting room floor that was unusable, and you can blame our friend from across the— actually, you can blame all of us. We're all terrible people. Dr. Jake, give us your scenario. Let us decide.

Leanne ElliottAITA?

C — REVIEWRight. So the writer writes in, I'm a 29-year-old first-time manager of a 6-person team. One person on my team, a 34-year-old woman, is very outspoken. She does her work and most people don't seem bothered by her, but I'm uncomfortable with how she talks to our director. To be fair, our director can be difficult. He gives us too much work. He gets passive-aggressive when we fall behind, although he's generally hands-off. He's still my boss though, and I don't think it's appropriate for someone on my team to challenge him rudely. So I've told her that if the workload is unreasonable, she should raise it with me and I'll decide whether to push back. I've pushed back before, but she keeps speaking up directly to him. So recently on a team call, the director was being passive-aggressive again and she gave it right back to him, basically implying that he was lazy and inconsiderate. And it made the call extremely uncomfortable. Afterwards, I told her she needed to stop and bring the concerns to me instead, and she said that she was doing my job by telling him when enough was enough. I told her she either needed to follow my direction or rethink her future with the company. Now, some of our coworkers seem to think I'm siding with the director over the team, but I can't have someone on my team talking to our boss that way. Because her behavior reflects on me and I need this job too. Am I the asshole? Leanne, what do you think?

Leanne ElliottOh, I think it's the wrong question. I think the question is, is your director an asshole? Oh, because I guess what I'm thinking is 2 things. If he is just— his behavior is just unacceptable, that he is passive-aggressive to the point of almost kind of bordering on bullying or undermining or, yeah, Then I'm kind of with— if that is the case, and I think I'm with the person who's clearly feeling their manager isn't doing enough to stop this type of toxic, inappropriate, unacceptable behavior, or at least filter it enough from the team, or particularly if there's pushbacks explaining why nothing can be done about it.

A — REVIEWYeah.

Leanne ElliottI also think this person probably needs to have a conversation with that, with the director. Maybe the director loves this. Maybe they see it as like a sparring partner, somebody that's finally standing up to them, and they'd like someone to, to challenge them. Maybe they're, they're mortified. Maybe, maybe they want to fire everybody. Um, I just feel that as if this was me, I'd be thinking as a manager, there's something I'm not doing effectively right now. Either I'm not managing up enough with my director, or I'm not filtering enough from my team, or I'm not explaining enough to my team about why things are the way they are. Um, I, I think I'd wanna, I'd wanna go have a conversation with my director, I think. So I don't know. I guess I wanna know is how much of an asshole is the director? 'Cause maybe that will make the difference.

C — REVIEWAll right. Stop dodging the question though, Leanne. Is this person an asshole for telling this team member of theirs They either need to follow their directions or rethink their future.

Leanne ElliottYes.

A — REVIEWThey are an asshole for saying that.

Leanne ElliottYes.

A — REVIEWOh, now I wish I hadn't gone behind, gone after Leanne. However, that said, I don't, I don't think they're an asshole for saying this. I think that the person who's talking up to their boss is a bit of an asshole because it's not like they've just gone on and said, I don't know what to do about it. They've just, they've clearly had a conversation about this, probably several conversations with this person in, in, in, and saying, please come through me. And yes, you can go down the route of saying, well, maybe there's not psychological safety. Maybe that, maybe this person doesn't feel like, um, that like, but it all boils down to the fact that they have been human. This manager's been human and saying, please stop shouting at my boss. Talk to me first. And this woman's gone, no.

C — REVIEWYeah.

A — REVIEWI'm gonna do whatever the frick I want at work, and I'm gonna shout at your boss if I think so. Because that, in my opinion, the way I'd look at it, is me saying to your boss, this woman is a shit manager and I want her job.

Leanne ElliottCan I just say, I, I have been in a management role where I've, I've been promoted above a peer, and this peer did take on this, this type of, of role where they would try and escalate things to my manager before going through me. And it took a combination of me stepping up in terms of how to appropriately manage this person and my manager going, everything goes through Leanne. You have a meeting with me once a quarter where I'll talk about whatever you want, but until then everything goes through Leanne. So I feel that— I don't know, this person, yeah, was she a bit of an asshole? A little bit. Was she wrong? Not all the time. All I'm saying.

A — REVIEWLike the dude says, you're not wrong, you're just an asshole. Love it.

C — REVIEWI don't, Dr. Jake, I don't think they're an asshole. Uh, I don't think they're the asshole for this. I think that if they're saying to this person, hey, don't make things uncomfortable for the team, regardless of what that behavior is, that's okay. In this case, it happens to be going to the boss that's doing it. But regardless, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, hey, if there's a challenge or situation that is not going the way you want, Bring it to me and I can voice it. And then the two of them can talk about whether or not this person's doing enough to voice it. But I don't think they're an asshole. Where I would stop short, if I could advise this person from the start, is in saying, you either need to follow my directions or rethink your future with the company. I think it can just end with—

Leanne ElliottYes.

C — REVIEWHey, you need to follow my directions. Hey, this isn't a choice. This is not appropriate behavior. If you have a challenge with the way this person's coming down, bring it to me and I'll bring it up. If you don't think I'm doing enough, maybe we'll consider having a conversation, the three of us. But I don't think it needs to become an if this or leave situation. I think you can just stop it at this is enough and that's the end of it. Again, if they keep pushing beyond that, then it's just, all right, you're insubordinate for doing something in general you shouldn't be doing. Uh, but that's sort of where I come down. I don't think they're an asshole for insisting that this person, you know, doesn't make things worse for everybody or go— I don't think the fact that it's the boss they're talking to in a bad way is actually the specific situation here. I think if this person's doing something that's making the situation uncomfortable and not helpful to the team, and their boss has a right to say, hey, just bring it to me, I think that's okay.

Leanne ElliottI think I agree. My issue, where I think they're assholes, is the ultimatum.

A — REVIEWYes.

Leanne ElliottIt's the ultimatum that's assholey.

A — REVIEWYep.

Leanne ElliottYeah. I also, I'm not too— we don't know specifically what the director said. Maybe the director said something outrageous that needed to be challenged, and I would want to respect that. You know, as a member of my team for standing up to somebody who was, who was just being blatantly inappropriate or bordering on bullying or harassment. I'd want to see that, that type of behavior shut down as well. But it's the ultimatum that makes it not cool.

A — REVIEWCan I posit a theory? Is that right? Does one posit a theory? Does one posit something else? I don't know. Anyway, that you said, you're right. And I didn't think of this at all till both of you said it's the ultimatum. And now I'm thinking, The ultimatum sounds to me like someone who's not particularly confident. Perhaps, perhaps they're not a great manager, or they're, they're a weak manager, or they perceive themselves as a weak manager. Because if you think about someone who is strong, a strong manager would say, cut it out, mate, and walk away. If you're in a pub and someone says, cut it out, mate, and, and just goes back to their pint, they're far more dangerous than the person who's gonna go, cut it out or we're going outside. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like they've put the ultimatum in, they're going, I need to reinforce that something bad will happen if you don't listen to me.

Leanne ElliottI also wonder as well whether this person, this member of the team, just needs a bit more attention. Like, sometimes you just have people on the team that just need attention. Do you know what I mean? You just need to go and spend half a day with them once a month to just, do you know what I mean? Let the light shine on them and then they'll be quiet for another 3 weeks. And I just wonder whether this is an element of this as well, that this person is trying to demand the attention by calling out her boss's boss because she's not getting it from her boss.

C — REVIEWThat's probably true. The age dynamic makes that a little bit atypical, right? You have a 20-year-old 29-year-old manager and this person on their team is a few years older, you would expect them to act in a way that is equally mature. And I think that's probably what's digging at this. I also wonder if it would be fair for the manager, in this case the person writing in, to say, hey, you know what, if you really have a problem with what our director is doing, you should bring it to me or bring it to them in private, but don't make this an issue in front of the whole team where it gets uncomfortable. I don't need to stop you from having a conversation.

A — REVIEWRight.

C — REVIEWwith the director. I'm not trying to pull rank for the sake of hierarchy in and of itself, but it's the public airing of grievances in front of other people that makes that person feel like they are on the defensive, that person being the director. I think that the public piece of it is where I have an issue too.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I could— yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I have had my, my situations have been atypical actually. I'm not sure age maturity was necessarily correlated, Maybe that's just my experience. I just, I think you're right. I think it's the, if you've got an issue, let's, let's figure out a way to take it to the director together or figure it out. It's, it's the, and my, my feeling is that maybe that because they haven't done that, this person is feeling they have to shout rather than deal with it. So I think maybe it's a bit of both. Maybe I'm winding back a little bit and saying it's a little bit of—

A — REVIEWThat's an interesting point, though, that if the person feels like the manager's not doing, not doing enough, and they might be taking it in their own hands. The person might be looking for the manager's job and trying to be noticed. The person might be one of those needy people. The person might, might just, this might be the only point in their entire job. They feel like they might have a little bit of control over, over their work. And so they take that. The problem with these, well, the beauty of these and the problem with these is that we don't get that much context. We only get the context that the actual OP wants to share. So there is that, but, um, so—

Leanne ElliottI feel like there's development needed on all sides. Yes. On all 3 sides.

A — REVIEWSo do we want to go to our verdicts, Leanne? Is this person an asshole?

Leanne ElliottI'm gonna use your cop-out and say they're a small asshole.

A — REVIEWSmall asshole. I would say without the ultimatum, they would not be the asshole. With the ultimatum, they are a bit of an asshole.

C — REVIEWI'll take it further. I think that they are not the asshole. The ultimatum is obnoxious, but it's still If I have to pick from the binary, I think they're not the asshole in this situation.

A — REVIEWAnd by the way, if you're listening along with this, which, um, then, then let us know. Find Dr. Jake on, um, um, on LinkedIn and call him an asshole.

C — REVIEWYeah, I was gonna say, go on—

Leanne Elliottcomment on Spotify.

C — REVIEWYeah, I was gonna say, go on Twitter and hashtag @Al #asshole and, uh, and let us know what you think.

A — REVIEWThat's, that's my burner account. Do not go on that account and have a look. Certainly do not look at the images. Oh dear. Anyway, Leanne, do we have time for one more?

Leanne ElliottWe do.

A — REVIEWOkay, so I've got one here, um, and I'm gonna tell you the story, and I'm gonna— it's gonna sound quite a long story, but I can tell you a story, but the actual question is slightly different towards the end. Okay, so this person, they says, I got a new sales job working for a company. Uh, the chair in my cubicle was uncomfortable AF, uncomfortable. So on day 3, I brought in my own Herman Miller Aeron chair. I bet you're sitting on one of those, Dr. Jake. Fancy.

C — REVIEWIt's not the Aeron, it's a slightly fancier Herman Miller chair. Miller, but go on.

A — REVIEWWell, those people who don't know what they are, then I'm gonna tell you how much it cost in a second. On day 4, it was missing, and I looked around and another sales rep was sitting on it. I asked for it back, but he basically told me to fuck off. So I went and spoke to the owner of the company. He told me that chairs aren't reserved, they are first come, first served. I explained that I own the chair and it cost me $1,800. So we all know now how much Dr. Jake makes if he's sitting in a better one. The, the owner of the company said I need to come in earlier if I want that chair. So I came in early the next day, same guy had come in even earlier and was sitting into it, sitting at it. I told him to give it back or I was going to call the cops. He refused, so I called the cops.

Leanne ElliottRight.

A — REVIEWSo I thought, right, I thought you'd like this.

C — REVIEWThat was a turn I did not expect, Al. I did not expect the authorities to be involved. I love it. Keep going.

A — REVIEWWell, the thing is, we talked about ultimatums in the last one, didn't we? And this, this person gave an ultimatum, and it was, it was not a light one. Okay, so the cops came, asked me if I could prove it was my chair, asked me if I wanted to press charges. My new boss said I'd be terminated, um, if I press charges, and I said absolutely, I want to press charges. This is brilliant.

Leanne ElliottI want to be friends with this person.

A — REVIEWI know, I know. And I'm like, this— anyway, I was gonna give you an opinion, but I wasn't. I'm not gonna anymore. All right, so my new boss fired me on the spot. So I went into the office, picked up my chair, and carried it out as I was leaving. And yes, the cops did arrest the dude who took my chair. Now here's the, here's the AITA. You thought that was it? No, no, no. This is— he's not asking, am I an asshole for doing that? He said, the dude who took my chair has been in the industry for about 15 years. He's gonna lose his security license. Which means— because he got fired, because he got arrested, which means he won't be able to work in the industry, so he'll lose his job, and he won't be able to get another one. He says, I don't give a shit. He shouldn't have stolen my chair. Or am I the asshole for making this dude lose his job? Right? I know—

Leanne ElliottThat was a rollercoaster.

A — REVIEWWhich is— and it's just such a great one. I'm so pleased I could end on it. Dr. J, should we get your first thoughts on all of that?

C — REVIEWWhat country is this happening in? I need to know more information. I want to know about the legal system I need some backdrop on what happens when you call the police. Imagine being the police officer who comes into the office and is like, I'm sorry, we got a call of reported theft. And they're like, yes, sir, there was a theft. And the thief is right there sitting on the stolen object. And the cop is like, I'm sorry, it's still on property? You know who did it? And everyone's like, yeah. And they have to go and actually I guess they have to arrest this person. I don't even know if that really counts as— does sliding a chair 20 feet over count as theft? Like, is that a prosecutable offense? I, I suppose technically so, right? It's your property. And who knows? I don't know the legality. My, my verdict is no, they're not the asshole. I said it. They're not the asshole for, for getting this person fired for, for taking their chair back. Uh, no, they're not.

A — REVIEWI see. I, I wanna come to you in a second, but just, you brought up a good point. Theft. So strictly, obviously depending on which company, which country this is, but theft will be taking it from someone. This is technically breaking and entering because they're not actually taking it. They're just occupying it at that point in time.

Leanne ElliottSquatting.

A — REVIEWThey're squatting.

C — REVIEWBorrowing.

A — REVIEWSquatting. So it's, yeah, exactly. I'm like, I think that would, you struggle to press charges on that. You're like, theft, have they taken it home? No, they haven't. Anyway, Lee, what are your thoughts?

Leanne ElliottI'm, I'm gonna say this person is not an asshole because I believe one asshole and another asshole cancel each other out. And I think their colleague is being, is being a bit of an asshole by, by just— I mean, it's my chair, dude.

A — REVIEWMm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottI brought it in from home. I paid for it. It's not yours. Give it back. I asked politely. I gave you an ultimatum. You didn't listen. You know, it kind of, it kind of feels like this, this, this person who stole the chair or borrowed it or squatted is, is a bit of a bully. Um, so yeah, I think it cancels each other out. It's, it's all, it's all ridiculous. Ultimately, I think some lessons were learned.

A — REVIEWYes, I agree.

C — REVIEWHere's how this should play out. You don't like your chair and you say to your boss, hey, do you mind if I bring in another chair that's office appropriate of my own? So that I can, you know, be more comfortable doing my job. And the boss says, yeah, sure. As not— as long as you're not bringing in some strange rolly ball, like, I don't see any reason why not, but our chair is sufficient. And he brings in the chair, and then if somebody takes his chair, he says, hey, I brought that in. I had permission to bring that in. And the person says, fuck off. And he goes to the boss and is like, hey man, this person stole my chair. And the boss is like, yeah dude, you stole his chair. He, he asked permission to bring that in. You can get your own $18 million chair or whatever it was. Yeah. And listen, as somebody— I was joking before, I do actually have a Herman Miller chair, but I want to be very clear. I bought it off Facebook Marketplace for about $200, and I got it, and I drove about 30 minutes to get it. And this guy had like 7 of them in his garage, meaning they were 100% stolen from whatever office he was fired from. And I just figured this is a strict don't ask, don't tell situation. You know, I was like, listen, I have no proof. that these were stolen. I just thought maybe he happened to get some expensive chairs and felt like, you know, selling them on Facebook Marketplace and asking me to pay cash. So listen, I just say this as somebody who values, values a comfortable chair. I'm 100% in this person's corner. I think, I think their coworker's an asshole. I think their boss is an asshole for saying, sorry, chairs are first come, first serve.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

C — REVIEWThey are, unless you bring in your own chair, in which case it's your chair. This is— No, this guy, this guy did the right thing. I think this guy should go and set up his own organization that directly competes with the old one and just put them outta business fully. I think you gotta make it your life mission to take revenge, to take, take the poor guy who was laid off after his parents' death from our first scenario and go sell this product, baby. Go out there and, yeah, and build, uh, and take it over. I'm, I'm 100% on this person's side. Al, what about you? Where do you come down? Yeah.

A — REVIEWOh, 100%. This guy is an asshole. And I'll tell you because—

Leanne Elliottoh, really?

A — REVIEWNo, no, no, sorry. No, the, the, the, the, the guy who stole the chair is not the asshole. Okay, sorry, I forget for a moment. I forgot the format of this, uh, of this episode.

C — REVIEWIt's a lot of pronouns being thrown around. There's a lot of, there's a lot of people in this. We have to— we need names. I think the person who stole the chair should be called Al, and the person who brought in the chair should be Leanne. And then the police officer who comes in and makes everything right should be Dr. Jake. I think just for the sake of organizing everyone's mind around it.

Leanne ElliottI think if we're being more kind of true to life, though, should it not be that you're the really shitty, obnoxious boss?

C — REVIEWI think I'm the judge who gets this case and is like, guys—

Leanne ElliottTo be fair, you've got the chair.

A — REVIEWYeah, I know. You've got the chair from the man who apparently accidentally ordered—

C — REVIEWI took the chair for evidence and now I have it at home is what I love this. I love this.

A — REVIEWI'm also loving the idea that if this person who did sell you the chairs listened to this going shit, what's this? What's the story? Oh, I thought I ordered one, but I accidentally ordered seven, so I'm just selling the other six. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Anyway, look, I want to go back to when I was about six years old. and I want to out someone from my school, and his name was Clive Woodcraft, and he was an absolute asshole.

C — REVIEWSorry, that's the most British name I've ever heard in my life. Clive Woodcraft. Oh yeah, it was Clive Woodcraft from Blubberpool. Uh, Sir Clive. Clive Woodcraft. You're making this up. Come on, you don't really know somebody named Clive Woodcraft.

A — REVIEWNo, it's true. No, and it was Clive Woodcraft of 19 Hapney Lane, Stoughton-on-Bishop. Uh, yeah, we don't have video here. We might use this as a clip though, because Jake is absolutely pissing himself.

Leanne ElliottWoodcraft is the most British name in the world.

C — REVIEWI'm gonna do a character skit where I appear as a British guy named Clive Woodcraft who steals your chair.

Leanne ElliottWhere was this though? Would he have actually called himself Clive Woodcraft?

A — REVIEWYes, it was down south.

Leanne ElliottOh, there you go.

A — REVIEWUh, but, uh, anyway, and, and he— and for about 4, about 4 weeks going, she— he'd— every time I got sweets, he would go and steal them off me.

Leanne ElliottOh, you bastard, Clive.

A — REVIEWI know, he'd go and steal them off me. And then he saw me in the, um, in the park, and we got a new bike, and he took his skateboard and he smashed the back wheel of my bike, and I was so devastated. That I thought, huh, I'll get you, you fucker. So basically I was at school and I said, oh, Mrs. Bullard— there you go, there's another name for you— Mrs. Bullard, our primary school teacher, I said, she's asked you to go in the courtyard and check the temperature. So we went to the courtyard, checked the temperature, and I went to Mrs. Bullard and said, uh, Clive's in the courtyard. And he got such a bollocking for it. And I think that, uh, do you know what, I'm slightly concerned.

C — REVIEWOutwitted him.

A — REVIEWI'm slightly concerned that my story has been slightly overshadowed by the names and the characters in it. Anyway, so have we got a Yeah. Jake?

C — REVIEWI have done a quick LinkedIn search and I don't see anybody named Clive Woodcraft, uh, online. There is, there is a Sir Clive Woodward who's a Rugby World Cup-winning coach, uh, with a lot of followers on LinkedIn. That would be— I would love to see that boxing match, wouldn't I? No, this person is 100% not the asshole. This person is absolutely in the right. And I want this person to take the person from our first situation and Mrs. Baumgartner, or whatever her name was, and Clive Woodcraft, and go start a competing business that sells chairs.

Leanne ElliottYes. Perfect. I love this.

A — REVIEWI love this. Great. Well, do you know what? We need to do another one of these. We need to do a regular one of these. This is a lot of fun. I've really, really enjoyed this. I think we both— we all brought 2, and we've been recording now for an hour. And we've only done one each, so we need a part 2.

C — REVIEWWe should solicit some from listeners.

Leanne ElliottI hope this replaces the surgery.

C — REVIEWOh, goodness.

Leanne ElliottYes, exactly.

C — REVIEWExactly. We should solicit some of it because these are pulled from Reddit, right? So I wonder if we can ask listeners to anonymously essentially give us their own Am I the Asshole that hasn't necessarily made it to Reddit as well.

Leanne ElliottYeah. Yes, definitely. [email protected]. Send us that and we will absolutely feature it in a future episode.

A — REVIEWAnd I will set up a webpage called truthliesandwork.com/ass. Is that not taken already? You can actually just submit them. Oh dear, Leanne, I think we probably need to call it a day.

Leanne ElliottWe probably do. But yeah, let us know where you landed on today's dilemmas. Let us know on Spotify comments, send us an email, join us over on LinkedIn. That's where the conversation continues. Yeah, I hope you enjoyed it.

A — REVIEWYeah. And I think what we were trying to do was show that every story has like a 2 halves to it, and you know, there's 2 sides to a story. But basically, we just, we just took the piss out of a lot of people. Dr. Jake said some stuff that I've had to cut out.

Leanne ElliottWe all said some stuff you have to cut out. Let's not put this all on Jake. We all got a bit carried away and a bit frickin' dark at one point.

A — REVIEWYes, we did. Yeah, we're back on Thursday with another fantastic interview with our very own Leanne Elliott.

Leanne ElliottHey!

A — REVIEWYeah, we're sharing an interview she did on Fried: The Burnout Podcast with Kate Donovan. You know Kate, Jake, don't you?

C — REVIEWUh, yes, yes, I know of Kate. I do. Should be great.

A — REVIEWYes, Kate's fantastic. Uh, Lee?

Leanne ElliottYes, um, I, I was grilled. I don't think I've ever done a podcast interview and felt more, more interested and genuinely engaged, but also really freaking uncomfortable. Um, she pushed back on me hard. We talked about what's filling in workplaces. We talked about what the world would be like if we trained all of our managers. Um, yeah, if you want to literally hear me sweating, check it out.

A — REVIEWAnd next Tuesday, back for another summer session, which we're calling HR Confessions with a very special guest host, Emma Jamil.

Leanne ElliottEmma Jamil. Jake, have you seen this on the YouTube?

C — REVIEWNo, I haven't. I'm so excited.

Leanne ElliottHave you seen the dance video that Emma created?

A — REVIEWEmma?

Leanne ElliottEmma, about like, like things that, like conversations you have to have over and over as a HR. I'll WhatsApp it to you. It's the best thing I've seen on the internet.

C — REVIEWI can't wait. I can't wait. It's gonna be a great episode for our listeners as well.

Leanne ElliottCan you get a contract out?

A — REVIEWAnd for the power— by the power of production, I will probably just put a little sample and maybe leave it underneath, ticking away underneath what we're talking about here. So do not miss that. Uh, do not miss, um, Dr. Jake— don't miss Dr. Jake's, uh, newsletter, which apparently you've not even written yet, and it's supposed to go out today. Is that correct?

C — REVIEWYes. Well, the day of recording, I don't know when this is. This is in July, right? So we'll see if it makes it out by then. But thanks for reminding me, Al. I was going to go take a nap, but I guess I'll do some work.

A — REVIEWWell, no, tell us what's your Substack?

C — REVIEWSubstack workwise.substack.com. Please subscribe, follow along, and share anything that you'd like me to write on. And yeah, listeners, let us know which country we might be welcomed in if we're going to do a live show. So throw some countries out there and we'll see if we can get some visas.

A — REVIEWYeah, love it.

Leanne ElliottLove it.

A — REVIEWOkay. Oh, by the way, also go and subscribe to Dr. Jake just for, just for the headline on his, on every email. I think it's one of the, one of my favorite things I've ever read. Right. We'll see you soon. Say goodbye, Dr. Jake.

C — REVIEWGoodbye, Dr. Jake.

A — REVIEWBye-bye. Bye.

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EP 3244 Aug 2026