Episode 327 · 13 August 2026 · 56:23
Top 5 Tips to Actually Switch Off This Summer, with Dr Rachel Morris
Featuring Rachel Morris
Top 5 Tips to Actually Switch Off This Summer, with Dr Rachel Morris
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Welcome & introducing Dr Rachel Morris
The frog metaphor & the Responsibility Trap
Why switching off is so hard for conscientious people
The people who need rest the most
interview#rest#self-care#burnout
Tip 1 — Book your recovery slots first
The urgency trap
interview#urgency-trap#prioritization#stress
Tip 2 — Get clear on what's in your control
interview#control#locus-of-control#boundaries
Unclouded acceptance
interview#acceptance#mindset#emotional-health
Tip 3 — Stop rescuing other people
interview#rescuing#boundaries#codependency
The drama triangle
Tip 4 — Expect the guilt
interview#guilt#expectations#self-compassion
How to say no (and survive the discomfort)
interview#saying-no#assertiveness#discomfort
Tip 5 — You don't need to earn your rest
interview#rest#self-worth#productivity
Micro breaks vs. real recovery
interview#micro-breaks#recovery#rest
The most important asset is you
interview#self-care#asset#wellbeing
Where to find Dr Rachel Morris
Show notes
Top 5 Tips to Actually Switch Off This Summer — with Dr Rachel Morris
Guest: Dr Rachel Morris — former GP, executive coach, keynote speaker, and host of the You Are Not a Frog podcast.
When was the last time you came back from holiday genuinely refreshed? For many leaders, managers, and high-achieving professionals, summer isn't relaxing. You spend weeks clearing your inbox before you leave, feel guilty for not working while you're away, check emails "just in case," and return to an overflowing inbox needing another break.
Dr Rachel Morris joins Al and Leanne to explore why high achievers struggle to rest, how summer can inadvertently trigger burnout, and five practical strategies to genuinely recharge before September. From the "Responsibility Trap" to the pre-holiday firefight, Rachel shares actionable ways to protect your energy and return to work actually feeling like you've had a break.
📌 Dr Rachel Morris's 5 Tips to Switch Off
Book your recovery in before anything else. Schedule your rest first, before the work fills the diary. Treat recovery as non-negotiable, not a leftover.
Get clear on what's in your control over the summer. Draw a circle around what you can actually influence. The Stoics taught this — if you can't control it, you can't do anything about it. Practice "unclouded acceptance."
Stop rescuing other people. When you jump in to solve everyone else's problems, you stay switched on and they stay dependent. Use the drama triangle model to spot when you're playing rescuer — and step back.
Expect the guilt and use it as evidence. Guilt isn't a sign you're doing something wrong. It's just your brain saying something has changed. Expect it, name it, and don't let it drive your decisions.
You don't need to earn your rest. Rest isn't a reward for finishing everything. You're not a machine — your most important asset is you. If you don't protect your energy, there's nothing left for anyone else.
More From Dr Rachel Morris
- Self-Assessment Toolkit (Am I Stressed, Overwhelmed or Burned Out?): youarenotafrog.com/toolkit/
- Connect on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-rachel-morris/
- You Are Not a Frog Podcast: youarenotafrog.com/about/
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottToday's episode starts with a simple question. When was the last time you came back from holiday genuinely refreshed? Because for lots of us, we spend weeks trying to get ahead before we leave. We promise ourselves we're not gonna check those emails and then obviously check them anyway and come back feeling like we need another week off.
Leanne ElliottSo why is switching off so difficult, especially for people who care deeply about their work? Well, to help us answer that, after the break, we are joined by former GP, executive coach and host of You Are Not a Frog podcast, Dr. Rachel Morris. She's sharing her 5 top tips to actually switch off this summer and explain why so many leaders and high achievers struggle to properly rest. We'll see you after this very quick break.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello, hello, welcome back. This is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name's Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd normally we'd be here to help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottBut not this week. No, no, no, this week we want to focus on you. Yes, you, listener. We want to help you get the most out of this summer break and actually go back to work refreshed.
Leanne ElliottYep, and we have the perfect expert to help us do that. Today we're joined by former GP, executive coach, and host of the You Are Not a Frog podcast, Dr. Rachel Morris. Rachel, welcome.
Dr Rachel MorrisHello, thank you for having me.
Al ElliottThank you for coming on. Just, uh, in case someone hasn't heard of you— I'm sure they have, I'm sure everyone has heard of you— but in case they haven't, just give us yours, like 10-second, what it— who are you and what do you do?
Dr Rachel MorrisSo I'm Rachel, I host the You Are Not a Frog podcast, I'm a keynote speaker, um, I talk a lot about the responsibility trap, and I used to be a GP, which was where it all started. Um, I also live in Cambridgeshire with 3 children, a couple of cats, and yeah, and various other creatures in my garden which shouldn't be there.
Al ElliottI saw 2, I saw 2 tortoises. Torti? What's the plural of tortoise? Is it, is it Greek derivation? I saw 2 tortoises having sex this morning.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottI know. I was like, hello. 'Cause there's quite a lot of wild tortoises and wild snakes where we live. And I was like, I took a picture, then I felt a little bit like creepy that I was taking pictures of them, you know, in the mid-coitus. I felt quite bad, but I'm sure, sorry, let me, I'm gonna move on from this. I just, I'm sure I'm sure the question people are asking, if they've not heard of your podcast, is why is it called You Are Not a Frog?
Dr Rachel MorrisIt's called You Are Not a Frog because of that froggy metaphor. Everyone's heard of it. The frog who is dropped into a pan of boiling water and it immediately hops out because it's sensible. It doesn't want to be boiled alive. But so the saying goes, if you have a frog in a pan of cold water, as you heat it up very slowly, the frog just doesn't notice. And then eventually it gets boiled alive. Now, I used to be a GP, and there was an article that came out in 2016 which compared GPs to frogs in boiling water. It said the workload has built up so slowly that they haven't noticed the water getting hotter, and now everyone's just leaving because of it. Or that seems to be the major reason why GPs under the age of 50 were leaving the NHS, because of the effect of their jobs on their wellbeing. And I thought, well, that's a real shame, isn't it? Yeah. Because you're not a frog. We're not frogs. Like, you don't have to just burnout or have to leave. There must be a different way of doing things. So that's where the title has come from. I must say, I didn't consider all the implications of that title because now a lot of my clothes are green and people keep sending me frogs. And, you know, I hadn't really thought about the green branding colour. But, you know, the title has stuck and we run lots of sort of froggy events and things like that for people in high-stakes, high-stress work like medicine.
Leanne ElliottAnd what are the types of conversations you, you have on the podcast, Rach? If nobody's listened to it before, how do we, how do we get them over to your show? Because it is brilliant.
Dr Rachel MorrisI started off just wanting to help people beat burnout and work happier, but as the show's evolved, we have really ended up on one subject that everyone struggles with, and that is boundaries. How to say no, how to carry less, um, how to ditch the responsibility, the overwhelming responsibility that we feel, yet still do a good job. So we talk a lot about the fear, the shame, the guilt that goes all of that and, and what it's like to work in roles where you deeply care about your work, you deeply care about the people that you serve, but you can't possibly do everything that you have to do. So, how do you choose what's the right thing to do? How do you choose what's not? And more to the point, when you choose what's not, how do you put it down without upsetting everybody?
Leanne ElliottAnd I think everything you've just said there is, is just really going to resonate with people listening, going into the summer holidays, having to juggle even more than they normally do, and it's 35 degrees and half the country is on fire. There's a lot going on. Before we go into the, the kind of the top 5 tips to, to really help people switch off, and I have a feeling we'll be talking about boundaries as, as part of those as well, why do you think so many people struggle to switch off to the point where they'll get back from a holiday or they'll, you know, things will go back to normal in September and they feel more exhausted than they did before?
Dr Rachel MorrisI think the simple answer is Work doesn't stop, does it? Everything just carries on while you're away, but you've got half the workforce, plus you've got double the work at home often. So, it's this perfect storm of still having to serve your customers and your clients over the summer, where maybe work goes down a bit, but then everyone's away, so everyone's having to cross-cover. You've got more stuff going on at home that you've got to sort out often, or even if you don't have kids, you are having to like cover other people who does have, who do have kids and have all gone away at the same time.
Al ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisSo, we're just managing more. And also, I think the usual routines have just gone. Like the usual stuff that you do, even if you don't have kids. Like, I go to a circuit training class, that's just stopped for some reason over the summer. So, I don't have those like normal routines and rituals that I do to keep myself well. And those little buffer points that are there in the week that you just sort of get used to, they've gone as well. So, I just think it's this perfect storm of everyone thinking they need to have a good time and relax. Of course, we do have a good time, but having a good time, often not that restful and takes quite a lot of organisation. And so, I think the emotional load goes up as well as the actual workload. And then we wonder why we get to September, we're absolutely knackered and feel like we need another holiday.
Al ElliottDo you think, Dr. Rachel, do you think that the people who need the rest the most are some of the most, that they find it the most difficult to turn off? Or is that just like anecdotal?
Dr Rachel Morris100%. Because the people that need the rest are the people that are always on, the people that probably care the most, that go above and beyond. They're the people that see the things that haven't been done, so they just pick them up and do them because somebody's got to do it. Or they're people who, you know, if you own a business, you can't just turn around and say, right, I'm off on holiday. If that doesn't happen, that's fine. If you are responsible for the whole thing and if things go badly wrong, you could lose your livelihood, or there's people depending on you for their income. So, it's almost like the more responsibility you have, the harder it is to turn off just because of the consequences of what happens if you do turn off or if you miss something. And then, I think you get into this pattern where you are so used to just working and working and probably overworking that work becomes your default. And then, when you do rest, you start to feel a bit guilty, like there's something wrong. And so, your brain is always sort of scanning the horizon for problems, even if there aren't any. So, it's very hard for people Just to stop. And even when you do stop, if you've been running at like 100 miles an hour, it's very difficult to just stop. There's this sort of period of deceleration where your brain is probably still going. You know, probably you do, you are still thinking about work for a time. And so, stopping dead is really, really hard. And it's more like a controlled deceleration. You know, if you've ever been on holiday where like the first few days you just spend thinking about work and this really important thing you've gotta do, and then—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisBy 2 weeks' time, like that important thing, it really is not that important anymore. And you just think, oh, sod that, you know, it actually wasn't that important in the first place. But you've, because you've just gained a little bit more, more perspective. But it's really hard when you are working so hard, running so fast, and then it becomes very different, difficult to tell the difference between what's urgent and what's important.
Al ElliottSo, should we get into these tips then, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think we should, because from everything you've said, Rachel, it does sound like summer is a particularly risky time for people who might be suffering from stress and maybe even symptoms of burnout. So, let's give them some tips and some tactics to hopefully avoid that and actually switch off. You've put together 5 tips for us. I wonder if you could talk us through your first tip.
Dr Rachel MorrisWell, tip number 1 is to book your recovery slots first. Before anything else, like before the work fills things up. I have 3 children now. They're all a bit older, but when they were school age and toddlers, I knew they had to be looked after in the summer. And of course, I was a GP going off and working. And at that point, that was before COVID there weren't— there wasn't much working at home. Not that working at home is any better when you've got kids. I used to start worrying about summer in about May.
Al ElliottHmm.
Dr Rachel MorrisLike, what am I gonna do with the kids? How am I gonna cover all the childcare? That'd be going on in my mind. And then all summer I would be working right up to the line, and then you'd leave really early to go and get the kids from their, their, uh, whatever summer camp you'd got them to. And then you'd be like working in the evenings, then you'd be packing to go away. And there was absolutely no buffer and absolutely no time to recover. And like I said earlier, the workload was doubled because you've got to cover Anyway. And so, I thought, well, how can you actually stop getting to September just feeling totally, totally, totally depleted? And I thought, well, actually, I'm gonna take a leaf out of what I normally do in my business anyway. So, if I have, I do a lot of speaking. If I've got a talk coming up, like it's a new talk, I know that's gonna take quite a while to prepare and it will weigh on my mind until I've booked a slot to do it. So, say if I find like a half a day in 2 weeks' time and I book that slot in to prepare it, then I don't feel stressed about that talk anymore because I know I've got time to do it. And I think for rest and recovery and recuperation and wellbeing and all the things you need to do to keep performing at the pace you're performing at, if you actually book those slots in throughout the summer, they're there in your diary. And I find that once something's in my diary, it doesn't tend to get moved, or I can choose whether to move it or not. But if something is not in my diary, even it's just a meeting with myself, It will get booked over. I'll just say yes to whatever the most urgent need is around me. So, knowing that you've got those slots in, I think is really, really helpful. And it doesn't always just need to be a slot for going sitting under a tree. It might be a slot for checking your emails before you go back to work. You know, so many people absolutely dread the weekend before they go back to work and they spend all of Sunday night just going through their emails because they know they're gonna open up 1,000 emails and they just want to know what's coming at them. Well, What if you booked like 2 hours halfway through the week before, just had those slots in your diary saying, that's when I'm going to check the email, so that last weekend doesn't feel awful. And what if I book a day in September after I've started back, but a day that I'm not going to fill at all, so that's where some of the overflow stuff that I haven't got to is going to get to. So, you're already building in your buffers. You're already building in that time when you can just sort of go and do some exercise or even Go meet up with some friends because, I mean, I have a lovely family. I'm sure you do too, but spending a lot of time just with your family can do your head in. And so, actually booking just to go and have a bit of, bit of time with your mates, like, you haven't seen for a while, could be really good. So, just think about what is it that you're gonna need and book it in your diary and give it a slot in your diary. Don't just think, well, I'll do it if I can fit it in, 'cause you'll never fit it in.
Leanne ElliottI love that. 'Cause I think as well, it's, you find time for, as you were saying, you know, those routines and rituals that kind of keep you grounded and balanced anyway. So, whether it be getting your nails done or going to a spin class or whatever it is, if they're already booked in, then as you say, we're much more likely to cancel or change them. But if they're not, we're probably less likely to try and find time for them.
Dr Rachel MorrisYeah. And in the summer, we often get stuck in what I call the urgency trap. Now, the urgency trap's one of the overwhelm amplifiers, and these are the things that make us turn up the heat in our metaphorical pan that we're swimming in, you know, frogs in the pans of boiling water. We're constantly actually increasing our own heat. You know, the system has got enough coming at us, but one of the ways that we don't help ourselves is just responding to everything that's urgent and dealing with it because it's coming at us really urgently and not thinking to ourselves, well, okay, this might be urgent, but is it important?
Al ElliottDo you think, Dr. Rachel, that some people who respond to everything that's urgent are kind of It's almost like they're taking on someone else's priority. Like I heard, I heard an example of someone saying that your email inbox is someone else's priority inbox. It's not yours. But then it's often quite difficult to go, no, I'm not doing that. I'm gonna say no, or I'm just gonna leave it unread for a couple of days.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisIt's really, really difficult and it's doubly hard for people in the high-stress, high-stakes jobs who feel responsible for everything. Because if stuff doesn't get done, you just think, well, if nobody else does it, I'm going to have to. And emails are a nightmare. Email is an undifferentiated delivery system that works for other people, but not for you. This is one inbox that everything lands in. So, no wonder you get worried about it because like there could be something really urgent and really, really important. And there could just be a trivial, they've CC'd you into an email because they're too lazy to actually write the email properly and say who it's for and what the action is. But they all land with the same urgency. And then people put those read receipts on them. So, have you read it or not? Tell me. And what happens is we end up treating all our emails the same rather than just sifting through and going, okay, what deserves my time? What doesn't? What's important? What's not? I always say to people, if someone puts a piece of junk mail through your letterbox, you don't feel you've got to respond to it. Even if they address it to you, whatever. But so why do we feel we have to respond to stuff that's in our inbox? That's one thing. And just because somebody's asked you to, and even if it's somebody you know, why do you have to? You don't have to say yes to it. It's— but we feel we ought to because we're good people.
Leanne ElliottI feel as well, Rachel, there's some things that, that if you're your own business owner, you can, you can really commit to, or if you know, you're a leader and you have employees, encourage them to do this, is the out-of-office message. I've, I've heard some brilliant ones recently. I, well, I emailed somebody from Metro Bank, a guest that we had on, and I got her out of office, and it basically said, um, I'm on annual leave until this date. During that period, all emails to this inbox are going to be automatically deleted. If it's urgent, contact this person. Otherwise, Email me again when I'm back, which I thought was brilliant. And then was it Dr. Jake we were talking to who said that he, in his out of office, he puts, I'm going to come back to loads of emails that I probably won't get around to checking. So if it genuinely is urgent, reply to this email again saying, and put urgent in the subject. So then when you're kind of scanning through, you can see what's actually important. Even then, it's what they deem important, I guess. But have you heard of things like that? Little Out-of-office tips.
Dr Rachel MorrisTotally. And I've even heard people say you should use your out-of-office more just to let people know what you're up to. So, for example, I'm gonna be writing a book. Well, I am writing a book and I need to really focus on it. So, at some point, I'm gonna have an out-of-office going, I'm currently in monk mode writing my book. You know, if your email is urgent, do this. Or even just a PS, you know, on your normal email, just tell people what you're up to. If it's your day off, say, I'm not here today, but I will aim to reply within 48 hours if it's important, you know, or just make the most of the PSs or just the little bits underneath your, you know, your general signature saying, you know, I check my emails twice a week on a Monday and a Friday. I mean, some people will be falling off their chairs hearing that, but you know, on a Tuesday or a Friday, if it's urgent, you know how to get ahold of me. So, you're just sort of giving people some parameters about when you are going to reply.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisBut the other thing I heard is that each email that you send generates 1.2 emails in return. So, you get these ridiculously long, thanks very much. Oh, no problem. Hope you're okay. Yeah, I'm fine. And then you're like, when does this ever stop? So, me and my team, we've started writing blah, blah, blah, blah, EOM, end of message, in the title. So, firstly, you know that that's the end of the message, but also NNTR, no need to reply. So, you don't get the, thanks for letting me know. Or if it's just an information email, just put FYI only. So, the person can glance and doesn't have to do then the mental job of thinking, do I need to reply? Do they want my advice? What do they want from this? So, you know, they're just letting you know and then filing it. And in my organisation, we've actually taken all our tasks off email. We won't let anyone give you a task in email because—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisYour inbox is a really bad to-do list. It's really hard to keep. So, you know, emails are for replying to things, whatever, and you don't need to reply to everything if you don't want to. But we have the tasks we're allocating on other systems, which you can store things according to the project rather than according to when they came in, which is essentially what emails are.
Al ElliottI love that. NNTR.
Dr Rachel MorrisNo need to reply.
Al ElliottThat's amazing. Using that from now on. Fabulous. Or you could do what I do, and that is just not reply to any emails, and if it's important, they'll email again.
Leanne ElliottHe generally does. He will come back from, from annual leave and he'll look through and he'll just scan. And if, if he wants to hear from this person or likes this person, then you'll read them, won't you? And then you just go select all, archive.
Al ElliottYeah, that's it. Because it's important, they'll email back.
Leanne ElliottStresses me out a little bit.
Al ElliottYeah, I can imagine. Okay, so tip number 2, Dr. Rachel.
Dr Rachel MorrisSo, um, get clear on what is in your control. Over the summer. I think so many of us get so stressed because we're trying to take control of stuff we just can't control at all. So, I think, you know, in the medical world, people get really stressed about the rota. I mean, you can't really control the rota very much unless you're the practice manager or the rota person. You can't control what other people are doing. You can't control what leave they're taking. You can't control when the schools open and shut. You can't control the weather. There's so many things you can't control. One of the things you can't control is the demand. So, the demand for your services, the demand from patients, the demand from your team. One thing I've noticed in people who, you know, are very responsible and very caring is that they try and take a lot of control over things that they haven't got any control of. And they feel very responsible for these things as well. So, for example, if a client can't get the service that that they need out of hours or on holiday, and you are not in control of that, rather than going, I'm so sorry. Yeah, this is rubbish, isn't it? We don't just feel stressed, we feel really guilty about it, but we can't control it. You know, you see it with GPs when they're referring patients for hip operations and the waiting list's 18 months. They feel dreadful, really guilty about the waiting list. They can't control it. So, I think one thing that makes the the stress better is just focusing on what you can control, not on what you can't control. And over-responsibility is one of my overwhelm amplifiers. When we do feel very stressed and anxious and frustrated over the stuff that is totally out of our control, that there's just no point. You can't control it, you can't change it. And what you're doing is just arguing with reality. You might as well just let it go. But just recognising what is in your control and what's not can be quite difficult. So, I just get people to draw a circle in the middle of it on a piece of paper and say, well, everything inside the circle, inside my zone of power, is what's in my control and everything else isn't. And that could be really, really helpful 'cause it shows you what to focus on and what not to focus on.
Al ElliottI suppose that also works for the actual holiday itself because you could put outside that circle whether it's gonna rain. You could put outside the circle whether you're gonna get a delay, whether a taxi's not gonna turn up, And that just takes the stress completely out of it. I mean, if you wanna just find out or wanna desensitize yourself to rain on holidays, then do what we did as a family when we were kids. It's just go to Scotland every single year and it guaranteed rain for 25 to 40% of the time. But I mean, is that a valid strategy as well?
Dr Rachel MorrisIt was very valid. I mean, the Stoics were teaching this, like I did not come up with this. The Stoics were saying like the only way of living is to focus on what you can control. There is no point. The Serenity Prayer used a lot in addiction, you know, with the 12-step program. Grant me the serenity to accept the stuff I can't control, the courage to change the stuff I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Now, when you do work that really, really matters, it's hard because sometimes the stuff that you can't control really matters. Like, it's really important. So, we're not saying you don't care about it. You can care deeply about it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisBut if you can't control it, you can't do anything about it. And when we talk to doctors about this, they're like, yeah, but yeah, but what if someone's told you you're accountable? Even if they have, if you can't control it, what can you do? But interestingly, in the Serenity Prayer, the word serenity, I was thinking, well, what does serenity mean? Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't control. Well, in that context, apparently it means unclouded.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Dr Rachel MorrisSo, I love thinking about unclouded acceptance. So, what I've done is I've taken this thing that's stressing me out, like if the children have a good time on holiday, if they're enjoying it. If you've ever been on holiday with teenagers, you'll know what I mean. Sometimes you could do everything and they won't be enjoying it. But you say, right, I've looked at that. I've looked at every aspect of it and thought, what can I control? Okay, I can ask them what they want to do. I can be pleasant. I can give them a bit of spending money. I can do this, that, and the other. But at the end of the day, I can't control if they're enjoying themselves or not. So, unclouded acceptance means I've looked at everything there, and I've done what I can, and I've left what I can't. And you can apply that to work as well. You know, in this situation, I've looked at everything that I can do about this situation, but I can't control that. So, I'm just gonna leave it. Doesn't mean I don't care about it. I'm gonna care deeply, but I can't carry it.
Leanne ElliottIt reminds me that, Rachel, of a kind of a mantra or an affirmation that a coach shared with me once. Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I definitely go to that when, when I find myself caring about things I can't control. Um, so yeah, I love that second tip. We will be back with Rachel and her 3 final tips in just a moment after this very, very quick break. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way—
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on We actually have a lot in common.
Al ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI've got that out.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back, welcome back. We're chatting with Dr. Rachel Morris about her top 5 tips to actually switch off this summer. Where were we, Lee?
Leanne ElliottWell, we had just finished tip number 2, which was, which is recognizing what's not in our, in our control. So let's move on to tip number 3, Rachel.
Dr Rachel MorrisWell, this is very closely related to the previous one, actually. So my tip number 3 is Stop rescuing other people. And this is about, this is really for people that are over-responsible, that feel responsible for everybody and everything, probably both inside work and outside work. And so, if you think back to the zone of power I was talking about, to working out what's in your control and what's not in your control, once you've sort of ditched the stuff that you can't control, let's look at stuff that is in our control. And this is where leaders and You know, people with a lot of responsibility really come a cropper because there is a lot we could do. There's a lot we could do for other people. And I don't know about you, but I've been brought up to be a good person, to help people. Yeah. As a GP, literally, if you like cut me in half like a stick of rock, it'd be like helping would be beat through the middle of me. And I wanna fix things for people. I wanna give advice. I wanna do stuff for people. But being in a rescuer role like that with your teams does not work. And so often, when the workload is too much, when other people are struggling, when there's loads and loads of things to do, people want us to take the work off them. They want us to help them out. They want us to solve it for them and fix it for them. And very quickly, we can end up in what's called the drama triangle. And I'm sure you've talked about drama triangle or heard about it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel Morrisbefore, a really helpful model from the 1960s, Stephen Karpman devised it. And it talks about 3 different roles we can play. One is a rescuer, one is a victim, and one is the persecutor. And you have to have all 3 to actually exist in the drama. So, the victim is totally helpless. The persecutor is being the evil one. And the rescuer is there swooping in like a knight in shining armor. Now, often when we're into leadership roles, When we own businesses, when we're working with vulnerable people, we are in the rescuer role. We feel that we are duty-bound to rescue them if they want us to, or even sometimes if they don't want us to. And the problem with this is that we've already got enough work to do ourselves without doing everybody else's workload. And you can see how that happens in the summer where people go, well, I've got to get away. Will you just do this for me? Will you do this? Will you do the handover for me? Will you? Will you do this? And before you know it, you'll be agreeing and doing everything for everybody else. And it's not helpful. It's not helpful for you. It's not helpful for the organisation. And actually, it's profoundly disempowering for other people. It keeps them stuck in this sort of victim mentality of, oh, I can't do anything for myself. And I was smiling when you were talking about the not my circus, not my monkeys. thing, because there was a really good book, I think written in the 1990s, called The One Minute Manager and the Naughty Monkeys. Have you heard? Yeah, great book. And it's a really great example of, of the difference between being a rescuer and actually letting other people take responsibility for themselves. It basically tells you that, say if you're a manager, you're— someone comes to see you and they've got all these naughty monkeys jumping around. They don't know what to do with them. So they say, oh, can you help me with the monkeys? And you say, Oh, all right. And you take the monkeys off them and they go, brilliant, thank you. And then they run out and you are left with all their naughty monkeys. And I think in the summer, we're often left with everybody else's naughty monkeys at home and at work. Whereas if we want to step out of the drama triangle, and one of the ways to do this is take more of a coaching approach, which I think is really the only way to lead sustainably, is to say, okay, let's look at these naughty monkeys together.
Al ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisAnd I can ask you questions. I can work out what you would like to do about it. And I can, you know, support you in that. But let's give you the naughty monkeys back. You can leave with them because you are empowered. You know what to do. You can deal with that yourself.
Al ElliottWell, it's just human nature to want to help, isn't it? If someone says, can you help me? Then it's, most people will be like, yeah, sure. What can I help you with? It's very, very, very difficult. So, Leanne, do we need to move on to tip 4 or any questions about tip 3?
Leanne ElliottI have a small question about tip 3, in that I think there can be a danger when we're in that rush, like finishing things up at work, we're in just like hyper problem-solving mode, and everything starts to look like a problem that needs to be solved. And then we find ourselves at home trying to, trying to again solve everybody's problems. And as you say, in a way, you know, rescuing them. And one thing that, that Al and I often, um, talk about with each other is, do you want to be Heard, helped, or hugged. And it's like, I'm still gonna help you in whatever way you need, but that might just be that, that you're on a rant and you just need me to hear you out, or it might be that you've had a crappy day and you just need a hug. And I— do you ever see this in, in kind of high performers or the people that you support, where they will kind of keep work mode on during those first few days of holiday to a point where it can start to Can it irritate other people?
Dr Rachel MorrisI'm sure, I'm sure they can. Yeah. I mean, I find myself giving advice to my friends the whole time and advice to my family. So, this works just as well outside the workplace as it does inside the workplace. And in fact, I would even use that heard, helped, or hugged as a leader. I mean, you might not wanna hug your employees. Don't do, don't try this at home, you know, but just being able to say, What do you want? You know, if someone comes to you with an issue, you're at work, just saying, what do you want from me right now? Do you want me to listen? Do you want me to give advice? Or do you want just me to be a sounding board? And actually, even if someone says, oh, oh, I do want your advice. Even if you say to them, well, okay, just tell me the issue. What's the real issue here? And what have you already thought of? What could you do? 9 times out of 10, they'll have the answer. And what that It stops you having to solve it yourself and taking on the problem. And also, we're very arrogant if we think we're the ones that have the answer to that problem. Because a lot of the time, we don't have the context. We don't know what they're dealing with, particularly if it's sort of like interpersonal issues at work or something like that. They're the only ones that could find the answer anyway. But for people who are, you know, very responsible, high achievers, they sometimes feel guilty for not rescuing. Because they think that's who they should be. Like, I'm the sort of person that always helps, that always rescues my team. For me, it's a mindset shift of thinking, actually, you are profoundly disempowering them. And actually, there's a great book called The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, which I absolutely love. And they say that the rescuer role is actually the most toxic role you can be in because it keeps your team members stuck. It's profoundly disempowering and it encourages behaviours that lead to burnout. In the team.
Al ElliottMy dad was a big fan of Tom— just talking of '90s books— my dad was a big, big fan of Tom Peters back in the day, uh, possibly a little before both your time.
Leanne ElliottUm, I studied Tom Peters as part of my master's. Yeah.
Al ElliottRight. Okay. And, and he was like, you know, the guy back in the day. Um, and he— one of the things he said, which my dad enacted in his job, was, you can come to me for any time you want. You can come to me and ask me a question, ask for advice, whatever. You just have to come with 3 potential solutions. And yeah, and he said the number of people who walked through the door went, I think I'll just, do you know what, Brian? I think I'll just do number 1. And he's like, cool, off you go. That's it. He didn't even, didn't even get to the question.
Leanne ElliottThe only caveat I wanna mention with that, 'cause I think this is where sometimes he, he was a bit problematic.
Al ElliottMy father or Tom Peters?
Leanne ElliottTom Peters. No disrespect, Brian. Love you very much. Uh, no, Tom Peters is that it can, if someone's got like, I need to go with a solution, but I genuinely don't know because I'm in You know, maybe I'm in a complete state and I can't get my, you know, my mind straight. Maybe I'm experiencing some, some symptoms of burnout, which makes that even harder for me to do. And I can't, I daren't go to my manager because he told me I can't go to him unless I go with solutions. So, it's almost like it's, it's, yes, it's, it's a good way of kind of creating that coaching-type relationship, but I think there is a slight danger in terms of psychological safety for somebody who's really struggling. What do you think, Rachel?
Dr Rachel MorrisWell, I was just about to say, it depends on the psychological safety, because if the manager had said, just come to me with any, it doesn't even matter how mad they are. You know, your solution might be like, we fly to Mars and get a Martian to come and do it, or this, just as long as I know that you've sort of thought it through to start off with. But you've always got to recognise the hierarchy and the power differential, and it might be really hard for someone in a team to come up with some solutions that they're not sure about. But, And I think that's, that's a, that's a good leader would actually be able to coach that person to come to a solution. So, you know, what do you think the real issue is? And okay, what, what could you do? You know, I've got some thoughts which I'll share in a minute, but I'd love to know what you think. No, no answer is wrong. Any suggestions worthwhile here? Because it might not be one I've even thought of. Um, yeah, so I— it's like, exactly, psychological safety is really important here.
Leanne ElliottSo that was tip 3, stop rescuing other people. And I feel that this leads really nicely into tip 4, because I think if we stop Between that, we might feel a little bit guilty.
Dr Rachel MorrisYeah. So, tip 4 is expect the guilt. Because I think if you put any of these tips into practice, you're gonna probably feel guilty. So, if you start to like time block stuff in your diary so people can't book in with you as easily, you'll feel guilty. If you start to, yeah, actually start to take the breaks, you're gonna start to feel guilty. If you stop stressing about what's not in your control, you might feel a bit guilty. And if you, want to be more, take more of a coaching approach rather than just rescuing everybody, you might feel guilty and you might also get pushback from other people. I think that's where we get this a little bit wrong. We make these plans because we know we need to protect ourselves in order to stay in our performance zone. But the minute we get pushback, our boundaries crumble and we go, oh, all right then, I'll just do that. I call that biscuit boundaries. Because we're not able to enforce them because we feel guilty. And I guess the problem with guilt is that we don't like it, but guilt, it's not a positive or a negative emotion. I think it's just like a warning light. It's like a symbol. Like, you know, my car has got this dashboard and there's this oil light that keeps coming on. Now, the oil light is actually wrong. It's saying you might need an oil change. I know that it doesn't, so I can ignore that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisGuilt just says, oh, there's something that's happened that might not be ideal. You might need to change your behaviour. It doesn't say you have to change your behaviour. It just says something has happened, or you've done something that somebody else doesn't like. Now, if I give a 3-year-old an injection, that 3-year-old won't like it. Doesn't mean I was wrong to give it. So, guilt can be really helpful. It can mean that I can change my behaviour or notice that I've done something wrong. But The problem is the minute we feel guilt, because we're good people, we think that that is evidence of the fact that we've done something wrong or the boundary was wrong or we shouldn't have laid that boundary down. Actually, all guilt is, is evidence that the boundary's working. So, if you get pushback, of course you're going to get pushback. If I say no to somebody, well, if someone says no to me, I'm not going to like it. I don't like people saying no to me. Doesn't mean they're wrong to say no to me. It's not wrong to enforce your boundaries. And one side note, one thing that a lot of professionals in high-stress, high-stakes jobs get wrong is they don't enforce their boundaries and they think other people should enforce their boundaries for them, but only you can enforce a boundary. But when you get pushback, go, of course I'm getting pushback. Yeah, of course my family don't like the fact I'm taking a day away from them. That's just them. That doesn't mean I'm wrong to do it. And we have to tolerate that discomfort of maybe not everyone approving of us all the time, not everybody being happy with our decisions, maybe even upsetting a couple of people or people thinking badly of us. Now, it's really uncomfortable, but unless we do that, we'll just be—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisTrying to please everybody all the time, and we'll just accelerate the burnout and the heat will rise and we'll end up with that frog totally frazzled in the boiling water.
Al ElliottCan I ask you then about the people who will be offended or upset about this, how we handle those? So imagine a situation where you've, I've said to you, hey, Dr. Rachel, thanks for the interview. Can I send you a photo of something about my body so you can tell me something about it? Right? Obviously that is not appropriate and that needs some rejection, but I feel like, oh, we've, we spent an hour together. She seems like a nice woman. So how would you deal with me being upset or, or about that kind of— now we can use a different, choose a different situation if you want.
Dr Rachel MorrisAnd I was just thinking, what photo are you gonna send me? And then you're like, oh, so you could tell me what's wrong with it. I was like, what photo is he going to be sending me? And why is he saying that in front of his wife? She's got freckles.
Al ElliottYeah, I realized as I was saying the words, they were coming outta my mouth. I was like, this is an odd, this is an odd situation. Can we, can we go on?
Dr Rachel MorrisIt happens. It happens. School playground, honestly, school playground mums are like, oh, can I show you this kid's rash? Right? So it, it's, it's a really good question. How do you say no to somebody without them getting offended or pissed off? Is that what you're saying?
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Dr Rachel MorrisOkay. Or how do we handle it? Well, first of all, the most important thing about saying no is to take a pause. It's like when someone's asked you to do something, I don't know about you, I'm a massive people pleaser. In fact, everybody's a people pleaser. It's what keeps us safe, isn't it? Not pleasing people, that's an existential risk because when we were living in caves, our amygdala will detect a physical threat, a hierarchical threat, or the group threat. If people didn't like you, you'd be kicked out.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisProbably dive exposure or eaten by a lion. So, our amygdala detects people not liking you just as if a bus is gonna come and run you over or you're gonna be eaten by a tiger. So, we will go straight into your fight, flight, or freeze zone when you've got to say no to somebody. I call that being in the corner. You're backed into the corner. And it's not just fight, flight, or freeze, it's fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. And that fawn reaction is what a lot of us do. So, I might try and say, okay, well, I can't really see that, Rach. Oh, well, Oh, well, just send. Okay. I'll have a look at it quickly if that's okay. Sorry to be difficult. So, we go into this over-helpful because we're fawning, because we wanna make the threat go away. So, when we are in fight, flight, or freeze, we're in our sympathetic nervous system. The adrenaline's going around our body and all the blood literally gets diverted from your prefrontal cortex up here into your big muscles so that you can run away or fight the lion or something like that. So, you're not thinking straight.
Al ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisSo, trying to give a reasonable answer when you're in your sympathetic nervous system, while you're in your threat zone, it's not going to work. So, just buying yourself some time, taking that pause is really, really important. You can take the pause, maybe just, can I check and get back to you? Or, let me have a think about that. Or if you're in a meeting, I just need to really take a moment to think, or go out, or I don't know, get yourself out the room, buy yourself some time.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Somehow.
Dr Rachel MorrisAnd then you think to yourself, okay, what is the story that I'm telling myself right now if I say no? So, if I said no to you about sending me your photo, I'd be thinking, the story in my head is like, I really want to please Al. I want to be his friend. I want to be helpful. I want to be the sort of person that's helpful. That's the story in my head. I want him to like me. And then I can pause and think, okay, is Is that true? Like, if I said no to that photograph, does that mean I'm a bad— but you know, so I'm going, well, I'd be a bad person if I didn't look at it. I'd be a bad person if I wasn't helpful. Is that really true? Actually, it's not true. The truth of the situation is it's very hard to diagnose things in a photo. I'm not your doctor. I don't know the context. I would actually put you more at risk if I did it. That's the actual truth. Because what I'm doing then is focusing on the long-term reason I'm saying no, rather than the short-term reason I might say yes. I say yes to get out of the threat. I say yes to please people, even if I don't wanna do it. So, it's about focusing on the long-term harm that might occur versus the short-term hurt that's right in front of me. So, once I've taken my pause, get my head together, I can then go, oh, Al, thanks for asking me. I'm really flattered that you think I'd actually know what was wrong. I just don't think I would be able to diagnose it properly. I think you'd be better seeing a proper medical professional that's actually done some general practice in the last 5 years. That would be the sort of thing. So, buy yourself some time. And the other thing is, I think the more excuses you give, or the more reasons you give, the more it sounds like an excuse. So, if I started going, oh, oh, by the way, well, I don't think I'm the right person, and oh, I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to dermatology, and oh, you're just like, oh, you're just trying to wriggle out of it. If you just say, actually, I just don't think that would work. Best to go and see a doctor.
Leanne ElliottEnd of.
Dr Rachel MorrisBut the problem after that is when you come back to me and then go, oh, but it'd just be a quick photo. Just, can you just have a glance? Then I thought, oh, I've set this boundary. You are testing it. I'm feeling guilty now that I'm not, I'm not looking at it. Ah, okay. Stop. That guilt's just a warning sign that I'm not pleasing you. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. No. Then I can go, right, I can now need to just, no, I know why I've chosen it. We You know, in the training that we do, we often use power mantras. So, the power mantra is really helpful because it goes, I am choosing to X so that Y, even if Z. So, I am choosing to say no to seeing your photo so that you are kept safe in the long run. You get a proper medical diagnosis.
Al ElliottEven if.
Dr Rachel MorrisYou don't really like it. You're a bit annoyed and I feel guilty. So, what you've done, you've predicted the long-term consequences rather than looking at the short-term consequences. And the short-term consequences that make us feel guilty, or even worse, make us feel fear that something's going to go wrong. And the worst thing underneath that is shame. Because often in these circumstances, we don't just feel Guilt, we feel shame. And guilt says you might've done something wrong. Shame says, I am wrong. There's some, I'm not good enough. I am not enough. And so, if we're choosing to leave stuff on our to-do list undone, if we're choosing not to do everyone else's job for us, if we're choosing not to rescue that person, often our amygdala that wants to keep us safe, but not happy, it will detect threats everywhere. It'll make us feel shame. And it's very difficult to say no or set boundaries or limit our workload if we are feeling shame. If we are feeling, I'm not good enough, or does this mean that I'm not the sort of person that helps people? Does this mean that I'm the sort of person that lets people down? And that shame, that's what keeps us stuck in the responsibility trap and not being able to get out of it.
Al ElliottWhilst I am ashamed of suggesting I might send pictures of my bits to you, I am very, very pleased that we went down that angle because I think there's some fantastic stuff you just said there. So, uh, yeah, but by the way, I don't know where that came from.
Leanne ElliottUm, what— I do find you didn't specify, did you?
Al ElliottTowards the end, I think I just did. So, Rachel, let's just— Dr. Rachel, let's move on to tip number 5.
Leanne ElliottWhy is it we do?
Dr Rachel MorrisOh, I'm just thinking about what bits you were going to send me.
Al ElliottDon't, don't. Talking of tips, Let's talk about tip number 5.
Dr Rachel MorrisX-rated podcast. Right, number 5. You don't need to earn your rest. I think this is a really big one. And do you ever feel guilty for resting or guilty for switching off?
Al ElliottSometimes, yeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisYeah. I mean, I think we've talked about this earlier, weren't we? When you've been running at a million miles an hour and you suddenly stop, your brain will just be like going, oh, what else do I need to do? But we've got so used to just working hard. And the success story I grew up with was, if you work hard, you'll be productive, you'll be successful. And so then when I'm not working hard, what does that mean?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisBut we seem to have got ourselves in this mode of operating where we don't respect the fact we actually need to rest. We think that I can only rest when I get to the bottom of my to-do list. And I don't know about you, but like, I never get to the bottom of my to-do list ever, ever, ever. But when we are basing our idea and our identity on our output, which is that success story, I am only as good as what I do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisThen if I don't do it, what does that say about me? And if I don't do it to the best of my ability, what does that say about me? That's why we're all often real perfectionists when we're in the responsibility trap. And so, we've got ourselves in this way of thinking that we have to earn our rest. We've got to deserve rest. And actually, it's the opposite way around, that rest is a requirement for high performance. We haven't got that into our heads either. And I think we can get what I call the superhero delusion, that we can just work 24 hours a day and we never need to stop. I genuinely used to work 120 hours a week when I was a junior doctor, and I could not function. I could not function. I was an absolute wreck. I don't know how I even walked back to my accommodation. We need to sleep. We need to rest. We need to do all those other things that keep us well. Rest is not optional. You've got to do it. You know, if I was gonna have an operation tomorrow morning, I would want to know that my surgeon was well rested and performing and functioning well. So, not giving ourselves that permission to rest is, you know, it's just madness. But we live in a society that talks about it. I was talking to this guy at the gym the other day and he said, there's this influencer that's going on and on about, you know, rest is for idiots, rest is for babies. You know, you can get by on 4 hours sleep a night. You can't. And likewise, if you work the whole time, you are not going to be in your performance zone. And the other thing is we only— we get quite perfectionist about rest as well. So, we go, well, unless I've got the whole day off, or unless I've got this afternoon, I can't rest properly either. But you know what? You can have 5 minutes in between customers or in between calls.
Al ElliottYou can take a lunch break and actually Leanne, you call it closing the laptop lid, don't you?
Leanne ElliottIf, well, for like a little micro break. Yeah. So, you know, you don't shut your computer down, you just close the lid and it goes doo doo doo doo. Like, I sometimes feel that that's what a 5, 10-minute micro break does. It just kind of gives you that, just enough of a recharge to enable you to go, go for the next bit. I also, I'm also a really big fan of talking to people who are, who feel guilty about resting. resting, about what does rest actually mean. Rest is just a break from kind of your regular routine. Rest is also recovery, and recovery activities can often feel much more comfortable for people who can feel guilty to rest. So, one of my recovery activities is cooking and baking. Al enjoys coding. Don't get it, but he gets a lot of energy from it. We'll both walk the dog. It's just Activities that give you energy, isn't it? It doesn't always have to— I think there's this kind of assumption that if we're resting, we have to be on a sun lounger or in front of the TV or asleep, or— but there's so much more to it, isn't there?
Dr Rachel MorrisThere is. I do think though that we, if we only ever do these micro rests, we're equivalent of, you know, your battery goes onto low power mode and you're charging it up enough just to get it out of low power mode, and then it just goes down again, just enough. And so, you are never actually fully rested and recharged. And I don't know about you, but I can't be creative when I'm exhausted and depleted. And a lot of my work relies on being creative and finding different ways basically to talk about the same thing, you know, a lot, you know, responsibility trap and stuff like that. But I'm really not much use. But we seem to think that like a battery level of 25%, well, that's fine. That's fine. And that's okay. But it's all driven by this guilt of just having too much to do and not getting through. Your to-do list. The thing that's helped me loads and has helped a lot of people in my communities and who I work with is viewing your to-do list differently. And I don't know if this is gonna be helpful. I'll share it with you. I was listening to Oliver Burkeman on a podcast. He was talking about books that he wants to read. And by the way, if you haven't read Oliver Burkeman, you've come across 4,000 Weeks, the most brilliant book about how our time is finite on this earth. We're not gonna get to most things we need to.
Al ElliottYeah.
Dr Rachel MorrisWe need to get to do anyway. He's this sort of anti-productivity guru. He's brilliant. He was saying he's got all these books. He's a journalist, books he wants to read. And he used to see these books as a bucket. So, he used to have to read one book, then another book, and just get down that list. He started seeing these books that he wants to read more as a river, that he can just take out a book he wants to, put it back, choose what he takes out. And so, I've started applying this to my to-do list. And I've said, what if we see our to-do list as more of a river Rather than a bucket. You're never gonna get to the bottom of that bucket on your to-do list. You're just not. And the more senior you get in an organisation, the more you'll have to do. But let's say, let's not see it as a thing we have to achieve or get to the bottom of. Let's see it as a river, and you can take a task out of that river and do it, or you can put it back. Some of them can just float by you.
Leanne ElliottWell, Rach, I know we asked you for 5 tips, but I feel that we've, we've got loads more than that. Tips on tips on tips. If our listeners only remembered one thing from today's conversation, what would you want it to be?
Dr Rachel MorrisI would say that the only asset, the most important asset you have is you. Like, you is how your brain shows up in the world. You is the way that you get things done. If you are not looking after yourself, putting that rest in and focusing on your work and what's important for you, if you're spending all your time doing everything for other people, you are gonna be so ineffective and you are not gonna be able to show up in the way that you want to long-term. So, unless you start to prioritize that and deprioritize meeting everybody else's needs, you are not going to manage that. So, the one thing you can do for your wellbeing is to protect your time, manage your energy, embrace your finite capacity. The only way you can do that is by setting boundaries and saying no and being prepared to tolerate the discomfort. Yeah.
Al ElliottDr. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a genuine pleasure. And, um, uh, sorry, I can't get over the tip thing. Well, we'll come back to that again. I don't even know you. I've known you an hour.
Dr Rachel MorrisI have this effect on people. I just, everyone gets very rude around. Well, I'm quite rude myself, but you know, anyway.
Al ElliottRight. We should go out for beers.
Dr Rachel MorrisDefinitely.
Al ElliottRachel, Dr. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. Can we just quickly go over those 5 tips again? Give us Give us them. Give us them. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
Dr Rachel MorrisOkay. Tip 1, book your recovery in before anything else. Tip 2, get clear on what's in your control. Number 3, stop rescuing other people. Number 4, expect to feel guilty and use it as evidence that your boundaries are working. And number 5, you don't need to earn your rest.
Leanne ElliottI think that number 4 is gonna be such a, such a powerful refrain. I hate saying the word powerful, but it really feels like Powerful reframe. Powerful reframe for so many people out there.
Al ElliottThat sounds like a LinkedIn post.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it does, doesn't it? Oh, I hate— I, oh, honestly, ChatGPT just ruined English forever. Um, but no, I think that's a big one. I'm already thinking of people in my life who I know experience a lot of guilt, who are gonna— I know that's gonna, gonna really resonate with them. Um, so listener, we wanna know as well what's resonated with you. Um, or if you've got a tip of your own for switching off over summer, um, you can come and join the conversation on LinkedIn or Spotify, leave a comment. Um, because yeah, it is, it's difficult for us to, to switch off over summer. So anything that we can do to help each other is going to be very, very important. If you've enjoyed today's episode, we'd highly recommend checking out Rachel's brilliant podcast, You Are Not a Frog, for lots more practical advice on avoiding burnout and thriving in demanding roles. Rachel, where else should people go to find out more about you and your incredible work, including your upcoming book?
Dr Rachel MorrisIf people go to youarenotafrog.com, you can see the podcast. We've got playlists burnout. We've got playlists on urgency trap and all that sort of thing. Also, if somebody's listening to this and they're not sure if they're stressed, if they're overwhelmed, or if they're burning out, we've got a free PDF toolkit which will help them do sort of a bit of a self-assessment on that. So, they can find that at youarenotafrog.com/toolkit. And you can also find out how to contact me and my team, book me to speak, all those sorts of things at youarenotafrog.com.
Leanne ElliottAnd we'll leave all the links, of course, in the show notes.
Al ElliottWe will. We will be back on Tuesday with another episode of our Summer Sessions. Uh, we'll be joined by Dr. Jake Tuber, different doctor. He's not a proper doctor, not like you.
Leanne ElliottNot like you, Rachel.
Al ElliottUh, I will be asking one simple question: am I the asshole? It's something from Reddit. It's a, it's a Reddit thing. AITA is well known. We haven't made it, we haven't made it up ourselves.
Leanne ElliottIt's, um, it's gonna be a funny one. We've had to cut quite a lot of that out just to make it airable To be honest. So, um, so yeah, come and join that one. And then next Thursday we'll be sharing a conversation I've had on another one of my favourite podcasts. Uh, it's called Fried: The Burnout Podcast with Kate Donovan.
Al ElliottSo until then, thank you so much for listening. Dr. Rachel, thank you for all your time and amazing, and amazing advice. Uh, shall everyone say goodbye?
Leanne ElliottI think so. Thank you so much, Rachel.
Dr Rachel MorrisThanks for having me. Great to be here.
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