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Ep18: 2023 Predictions in People & Culture (Part 1 of 2)

In the first of a 2 parter, Al & Leanne make their predictions about what will happen in the world of People & Culture in 2023.

In part 1 of 2, Al & Leanne make their predictions about what will happen in the world of People & Culture in 2023.

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In this episode, we cover:

  • The fight for talent (and how we think it will change in 2023)
  • Talent retention vs attraction
  • How HR can learn from sales & marketing
  • Why professional development is likely to explode in 2023
  • Will the future of coaching be based on Artificial Intelligence?
  • Why everyone will want a coach
  • Part 2 will be out in the first week of January.

Part 2 is available here, or search your favourite podcast player.


All the links mentioned in the show.

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The Transcript

⚠️ NOTE: This is an automated transcript, so it might not always be 100% accurate!

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Al Elliott  0:00  
Just by someone saying that makes you really reflect on what’s happened to you

Leanne Elliott  0:11  
Hello, and welcome back to the truth lives and workplace culture podcast where we help business leaders, business owners and anyone who’s interested unpick the somewhat complicated world of people and culture. My name is Leanne. I’m a Business psychologist.

Al Elliott  0:24  
My name is Alan. I’m a business owner. And welcome

Leanne Elliott  0:26  
back. I hope you had a lovely Christmas.

Al Elliott  0:28  
Yeah, what did you get up to the drink too much. We all we all eat too much. drink too much and watch too many films I’ve watched. I think we’ve watched more films in the last four movies. Sorry for those across the pond. In the last in the last like five days and we have in the last five months.

Leanne Elliott  0:44  
We have we have we’ve watched we watch some good ones and bad ones from Okay, well, lots of Christmas ones.

Al Elliott  0:50  
Going in the bad category. I think Leon has their thing where she where she loves to jump on these films were in minute four, you know exactly what’s gonna happen. Do you remember the time we sat and watched nativity when we’re in Wales? That was a really good film. I

Leanne Elliott  1:02  
stand by that. No, no, no,

Al Elliott  1:03  
I’m not. I’m not necessarily dissing nativity. But I did say to you, I said, half by maybe about three quarters way through. I said, I read this book. And it’s called nobody wants to read your ship by Pressman. Everyone’s shouting it out. I remember his name. And and basically it says that that the formula for films is that minute 105 is called the place we the worst place or the work that you can’t get back from there’s a much better name than that. We pause nativity at this point, I said, this is exactly what the point what he’s talking about paused it what timestamp was it?

Leanne Elliott  1:34  
105. It was a beautiful moment, if you haven’t seen that activity, and you might not have if you are listening from not the UK. But no, that means you’re not in the UK, because it is a very British film, lots of classic British actors and actresses in it. It is funny, it’s funny, given a watch, I’m sure it’ll be on Netflix or another legal streaming platform.

Al Elliott  1:56  
Or maybe given over to nativity two and three, a bit of a mess. So talking everything’s a mess. We are moving away from a slightly different from from my former we’ve been producing up to now which is interviews. It’s just you and me today, Lea, isn’t it? It is now we’re gonna be talking about the predictions, which we think are going to happen or we’re actually that’s that’s hope and prediction. That’s what a prediction means. Now, we’re going to be think about predictions for culture, workplace culture, and people in 2023. It’ll be interesting to come back to this. And I think we should in December and see how much of this has actually happened because some of these are bit crazy.

Leanne Elliott  2:29  
That would be really interesting, actually, to see what does. What does come true.

Al Elliott  2:33  
Yeah. And then I can always go back and edit this episode, and take out the ones that didn’t come true. And then we’ll look like we’ve made all of them come true.

Leanne Elliott  2:41  
Sure. Be honest, but yeah, okay. That makes me look good. I mean,

Al Elliott  2:49  
okay, so as you might imagine, in terms of the actual people and the science behind it, Leanne knows far more than I do I know about practical application. My background is marketing and business ownership. Leanne’s background is purely people. She is a scientist. She is amazing. So a lot of these so Liam’s got far more predictions, and I and you will also hear that Leanne’s predictions are probably a little bit more scientific, and probably a lot more accurate because mine are a little bit ridiculous. But so we’ll try and we’ll try and get it so that we are alternating a little bit, but you want to kick off with your first two. Yes, yes. Because too well, because you see, you’ve got more than me. So I’m thinking get two of yours and our slot one of mine, I’m going to park this though, we are going to to park this but again, you’ve got you’ve got loads more than me.

Leanne Elliott  3:31  
Third of 2023. I don’t know about you listener but I’m kind of I’ve got one eye on 2023 thinking, yes. Come on, bring it on. And one going, Ah, shit. What’s what’s going to happen this year? Honestly, since 20, do you remember 2019 those glorious days where everything just seemed to be stable and lovely and normal. Everything just worked. Everything seemed to work. I’m sure that’s rose tinted glasses looking back. But the last the last three years, I’ve seen some work.

Al Elliott  4:07  
Yeah, we’ve gone through a fair amount. And I think you can see that a lot in the trends that Liam’s gonna we’re gonna talk about. I know that you listener ever probably got that in your business. You’ve seen some massive changes in the last sort of 18 months in terms of people culture, expectations, etc, etc. So what’s what’s your first prediction earlier?

Leanne Elliott  4:25  
My first prediction is that the fight for talent will continue. But I think the strategy will shift. I think it’s going to shift in a way that is more sustainable. And in a way that is more competency based. So let me just give me some context behind the thinking 2022

It was a bidding war for talent. salaries were going up. We were hearing of clients who were having people like, pull out after the semi contract or they had a counteroffer. more money. It was it was a war for talent, matalin a fight it was a war for talent. But I think I think that’s understandable given, you know, the the great resignation, the big shifts that we saw post pandemic, I think there is going to be a correction. And I think whereas the power has very much been with a candidate, in particular the latter end of 2022, I think that’s gonna, that’s going to correct itself and shift a little bit more to towards business owners. And I think as well, you know, with the economic downturn that is being predicted, I think people are going to be start to be a bit more cautious, a bit more careful around

Al Elliott  5:40  
people a bit more cautious. You mean that people applying for jobs, employees,

Leanne Elliott  5:43  
candidates, employees, it’d be a bit more cautious. Maybe a bit more. I don’t know, I guess a bit more motivation to stay put. And again, I come back to this correction. And this is what Aaron said on our podcast when talking about the the tech downturn, we’ll talk about the Twitter layoffs. And I think that’s a really valid point in so many different areas, is that, you know, during the pandemic turnover was very, very low. Because people understandably weren’t sure about how they’d find another job or what that would look like. So I think really, we just saw that correction this year, I think the great resignation was really just the the normal amount of turnover, we would have seen during the pandemic, kind of catch up and and all happen at once. But I think at the same time, there’s going, I think it’s gonna be a pushback from HR leaders from people and culture practitioners, to managers, saying what do you actually need in a person in terms of their skills, their knowledge, their competencies or abilities to actually do this job, let’s not dream that we can now go around recruiting superstars for every single role? What do you actually need in a person to do this job. So I think we’re gonna see a massive increase in Job analysis, which is understanding the actual role that is needed within a business to contribute positively. I think we’re gonna see an uptick in more data lead recruitment strategies, I think is where I saw a statistic, I think it was got to that it was like 36% of recruiters and HR leaders saying that currently, they didn’t think their recruitment strategy was sufficient, in that it was working. We’ve talked about this before on the podcast, go back. And listen, if you’re interested, recruitment is science is the most sciency thing we can do in people and culture. You want something tangible to get your get your arms around, it’s recruitment. So I think we’re gonna see a lot more data, lead recruitment, much more use of psychometrics and I think is, well, critically, we’re gonna see organisations, engaging more in rolling recruitment. So organisations are going to always be actively recruiting, you’ve been

Al Elliott  7:51  
a big proponent of internal recruitment or internal talent pools, which if we’ve understood, what it means is that you, like you say, you’re rolling recruitment, and then you get someone who’s really good and go, Look, we’ve not got a position for you, but I’m going to work really hard to find a position for you, rather than than recruiting when you actually need it.

Leanne Elliott  8:08  
Yeah, not just internally, externally, as well, I think particularly if you have roles within your business that are a constant, you’re always going to have that role in your business, that typically have a higher turnover. So probably, like roles that are lower down in terms of, of salary and hierarchy, where you’re always going to need people in it. So for example, I don’t know, like, if you’re an accountancy firm working, then maybe you’re kind of entry level accountants, or bookkeepers, or whatever you call them, you’re always going to have that role in your business, and you’re typically going to see a higher turnover. Because these people are, you know, early stage of their career, and developmentally, they’re going to move every two to five years. And this isn’t a new thing. You know, call centres use this a lot, typically, because of the high turnover rates. So I think we’re gonna see businesses engage much more in rolling recruitment, as and as I said, creating these talent pools. So we filled all the roles, but you’ve met every standard we needed you to, we’d love to keep your name on record. And the minute we have a position would you be interested in us contacting you? I’ve done that with clients before it works really well. Massively reduces your your time to fill in the future. I think it’s just a smart, sustainable way of always, you know, making sure that you’ve got great people coming into your business.

Al Elliott  9:31  
Now, in a second, I’m gonna ask you to summarise that in one sentence, your prediction, but in the meantime, while you’re thinking about that, because I’ve just sprung that on you is that it’s interesting to hear the a lot of the sort of investment talk what you’re saying there is correction, you’re saying that, you know, there’s a lot of and I think what’s really interesting is that if you are an investor in any of any kind, whether it be crypto equities, whatever, then I don’t think there’s more of a demonstration of human nature. chair, then looking at stocks and shares over a period of time, because they don’t follow. They don’t follow the logic. So for example, if we use that analogy, which I don’t know a great deal about stocks and shares, but if we say that there’s been a bull run recently in terms of salaries, then you know, you go well, there’s got to be a correction of that, because like in every single market, there is a correction. God, I, I look at my crypto wallet these days. And I know there’s definitely been a correction in that

Leanne Elliott  10:25  
training, teaching over Christmas over that one.

Al Elliott  10:28  
I think a lot before that, but very, we’re moving away from my from, from my massive losses in crypto. But I think it is really interesting. So what we’re talking about there is there is a supply and this is a supply and demand market is recruitment is as simple as that there’s a supply and demand and then it fit felt like there was there was a retraction in supply and retraction in demand, therefore the supply Yeah, so therefore, what salaries had to go out to check it? Let’s look over Ileana Jack, I was saying the right. So I think it’s really interesting to think of it in terms of that there. Now we aren’t getting this correction. Now people you know, who were very bullish on getting a new job six months ago might not be quite so confident going into 2023, which can obviously be good. But then you know, there’s ways that you can then manage that and make it even better for people to to stay in your organisation. So do you have a nice succinct summary for us for prediction? Number one,

Leanne Elliott  11:22  
I think the fight for talent will continue. But the strategy will shift. And there’ll be a much bigger focus on perfecting this isn’t really a one liner is it? I like it so far, is ever going to be much more of a focus on perfecting the recruitment process to make sure you’re finding the right people for the right role every time. And you know, what if it’s the right person, and you’ve got all of the signs based recruitment processes behind it, and you know that this person is a superstar, or even better, you know, this person is, is good enough, but they’re really invested in this role in this company. And you need to throw a bit more money at the problem fine, because you’ve got the data to back it up. So I think fight for talent will continue, there’ll be a slight correction in the balance of power. And I think having an evidence lead recruitment strategy is going to be the big thing of 2023.

Al Elliott  12:15  
Nice, nice and also enjoying that you’re, you’re picking up my investment analogy there and quite enjoyed that. So what is your prediction number two Leanna.

Leanne Elliott  12:26  
So following on from prediction, number one, I think 2022 There is a really a big focus on the fight for attraction, attracting talent, I think 2023 There’s gonna be much more focus on talent retention. So yeah, keeping hold of those people in your business. And I think this is where employee engagement is going to come in. And I think, you know, we’ve always talked about how it can be an anxious task for leaders to gather insights from that team, it can be a bit scary in terms of what you’re going to find. And you will find things that you don’t want to hear. That’s just the nature of it. You will. But I think in 2022, businesses were just blindsided by the the candidate control in terms of the recruitment market, and I think that has left so much anxiety around the uncertainty, the unpredictability. who’s leaving now, who’s going to how hard is it going to ever? How long is it gonna take me to find someone to fill this role, I think it’s going to be a much more comfortable anxiety, to do the work and understand how your employees are really feeling about your business, and use that data to make changes to support employee engagement and in turn retention. So that I think is going to be a big thing for 2023 in terms of collecting data about employees, but importantly, focusing on what that data actually means and how it can be applied within your strategy, and how success of any changes you make can be measured. I think that’s going to be a really big thing. I’m sure lots of businesses out there already have employee engagement surveys or employee wellbeing surveys. How is that data used? Are you using that data to inform your strategy? Are you then communicating that back to your teams? This is what we learned this is these are the changes we’re making? And are you then assessing in six months time the impact of those changes? And I think there is going to be really big, big shift is much more data is going to be collected. I think much more data is going to be applied. Yeah, I

Al Elliott  14:42  
think what’s interesting there is that you’ve talked about I mean, did you I think you mentioned the employee survey that I can offer as vibe I think you mentioned that and an office vibe was definitely felt more like a sticking plaster for a lot of businesses in the in the same as someone going oh my net Promoter Score is really high for our business like, yeah, okay, that’s great. But how would you profits? You know, just having a good NPS is not going to necessarily translate to revenue and to profits and stuff. And I think it’s a similar kind of thing. These apps have come out. And we’re not necessarily like, you know, crapping on these on these, these apps, because some of them are good. And it’s good, the fact that someone is actually measuring this. But what you’re saying, If I’ve understood it is that it’s not enough just to have an engagement survey it you’ve got to actually collect that information or that data, and then create a strategy to do something about that data, and then go back. And then thirdly, just measure how you’re doing six months down the line, compared to where you were when you first collected that data. Yes. Good. Understood, I think, yeah, you’re gonna find just just a little aside, because I’m gonna ask you to summarise that in a second, because and then you’re gonna ask me to do the same I’m sure is, what you’re probably fine with, with the way that we both approach things is that I’m going to be taking things from a tech point of view and a marketing point of view. And this is going to relate to my next thing. And the answer can be taken from a people and a and a culture point of view. And hopefully, we’re going to correct each other and go hang on a minute. Does that actually make sense? So you’re probably here as both like a bit of back and forth. So can you summarise point a prediction of a two in a couple of sentences?

Leanne Elliott  16:19  
Yeah, I think number two, that there’s going to be a shift in focus from the fight for attracting talent, to the fight of retaining talent, and specifically, making sure that you are one collecting the data be applying the data? Three, did I say a base there? So you

Al Elliott  16:43  
go ahead, you say so number one day, number one, be calm?

Leanne Elliott  16:50  
Can you Chrimbo Limbo messes with your brain? What was I saying? Yes, one collect the data. To apply the data three, measure the impact of the changes made.

Al Elliott  17:04  
Love it. Brilliant. So my number three or number three prediction is from me. And it’s funny, because it’s very similar to what Leanne was just saying, and we can we come up with these independently, very similar what Leanne was just saying is that, I think that marketing and sales departments have got so much knowledge that people recruitment, HR can actually borrow from and obviously the likewise. But in terms of like, if you think about a business function, the whole idea of of marketing is to get is to get someone to pay attention to you. And the whole point of sales is to get someone to commit to you. Well, that’s basically like the job ad and then the actual interview. And I think there’s so much information and so much, so many skills that marketing and sales have got that we can borrow from. For example, if you’ve been in marketing, which most of our audience are creative and digital agencies, they know what marketing is about, they’ll know that acquisition and retention is far cheaper to to keep a customer than it is to find a new one. So there’s that strategy, which Leanne alluded to just a second ago. And I think marketing have known this for years and years and years. So there’s definitely a lot of knowledge transfers that could be going on there. The other thing to consider which marketing, they always they always put it well, good marketing teams put a percentage towards branding plays, which obviously now we’re hearing the term employer brand and much more these days, which again, is helping to get that word out and to sort of build this experience that the people are going to have, and the other and a couple of other things that you mentioned their data in terms of marketing, we’ve always used the analytics to determine which advert does well. So what Leann saying there is basically what was market has been doing for time immemorial, is collecting data, seeing what converts and then iterating on those results. So that’s really, really important. And also, I think, just being able to adapt to the market conditions. There were times when Google ads when Facebook ads, were really were really cheap, then they became expensive. So what we’re saying here is always the time when you could recruit for a particular position, and the salary was x, and now the salary is X times two. That’s the expectation. It’s just the market forces. We all know as marketers or business owners who are generating these, we know that this happens. So why are we surprised is now happening with people?

Leanne Elliott  19:19  
Good point, why are people surprised?

Al Elliott  19:22  
It’s a market market driven in which we should understand that. So I will.

Leanne Elliott  19:27  
And I think just to just to piggyback a little bit on your prediction, if I may, I completely agree. And I had this written down as one of mine, but I think it fits in really nicely as an add on to yours. I think we’re gonna see a lot more investment in an employer brand, as you mentioned, but I think there’s a much more increased collaboration between people and culture leaders, HR leaders, and marketing and internal communications teams. I think there is you know, we’re always going to have this push and pull like you say, with with the market with supply and demand Aren’t with Gen X and Y versus Gen Zed. But as Al said that it’s all about the market. And I know we we talk about generational differences quite a lot. And this isn’t from an it wasn’t them perspective, that’s the last, the last thing we want to promote. But we’ve seen so much disruption in the last 2030 years, in terms of the world of work, in terms of the economy, in terms of technology, in terms of globalisation, that, understandably, my experiences as a 16 to 18 year old, it can be very different to someone who is 16 to 18, from 2019, to 2021 2022. So, yeah, whereas we were kind of entering the world of work in the depths of one of the biggest global recessions we’ve ever seen, where salaries were reduced significantly, where Job security wasn’t a thing. So you did tend to cling on a little bit a little bit more. We’re used to that. And we’re now the people that are in management and leadership positions. So for Reuters, it’s hard for us to understand why these expectations are wildly different in terms of salary in terms of other benefits in terms of moving on, you know, quite frequently from roles, because, you know, the people that have entered the workforce over the last five to 10 years have seen a much more stable economy. So I think there is a, there is going to be this push and pull between between generations, I think that’s something we need to be aware of, and that we need to, to address in terms of understanding each other more and making that effort to understand each other more. But I think also, there’s this kind of mantra of, it’s not always about doing more, it’s about doing better. And I think, where we can’t do more, they can’t keep increasing salaries, where it’s not, within, you know, commercial reality, to meet every demand that an employee is putting on. That’s not to say, we can’t do better with what we’ve already got. And I think one of the biggest ones for me, when we were talking about the cost of living crisis, was you know, a lot of of organisations have platforms in place, such as perks that we mentioned, they will have all sorts of benefits like GP appointments, online counselling, mortgage advice, health and diet advice, so many different different things that can contribute positively to an employee experience and employee wellbeing, yet the awareness of these benefits is low. And the number of people accessing these benefits is low. So I think rather than adding 2022 was like, what else can we throw at the wall was to get people to accept this job? It’s going to be let’s just take a little bit of an audit, what have we got in place? What is being used? Are people accessing it? Do they know about it, role modelling those behaviours, and I think that’s going to be a big thing of 2023. Let’s not do more, let’s do better.

Al Elliott  22:52  
I love it. I love it. And I think what we, what we’re basically saying there is that all the different functions of a business can learn from each other. And I hope that they do learn from each other, because sales can definitely learn from customer success. And, you know, and if there’s someone who’s in charge of, for example, retention of customers and have to deal with cancellations. Well, that’s again, someone who probably who is worth speaking to, if you are looking for people, if you’ve got interviewers coming in, or in doing in house, it’s worth finding that out. And then if you think about that, why are you not? And maybe you aren’t, but why are you not calling up those people who have who you’ve offered them job? They’ve said no, and said what could we have offered you? Yes. To make to make you say yes, and you’re not necessarily gonna offer it? It’s just how interesting is that gonna be?

Leanne Elliott  23:35  
What did my competitor offer you? That you said yes to? We’ve

Al Elliott  23:39  
been doing that in sales and marketing for years and years and years, why we’re not doing that with people. So to summarise the Prediction number three, which is mine, which is that that people or the people function and the marketing and sales functions, if you don’t mind me grouping those together, sorry, guys, if you’re, if you’re, if your hardcore salesperson is that they those are going to be able to learn so much from each other, and the people, the people function should be speaking more to the marketing and learning what’s worked for them.

Leanne Elliott  24:06  
Yeah. And again, I think this is just another iteration of something we’ve already seen. I mean, I’ve worked with an executive branding firm for years. And back in the current 2015 16, we were talking about how, you know, the best performing CFOs are the ones that had become a judge in their organisation, their function into a profit centre on a cost centre, because they’re talking much more commercial, much more sales are enabling growth. They’re not kind of the people with you know, holding the purse strings anymore. And that is now just what a CFO does. But 810 years ago, that wasn’t what a CFO did. I think this is just the next iteration that we’ve already done really successfully. And I think this is a great thing for business leaders. This is things that you already know how to do. We’re just extending it and I think this extension in 2023 is as you said, as people and culture, sales and marketing and comms working much closer together. So my false prediction, I think professional development is going to be the kind of the people and culture area of 2023. I think this has been an increasing importance to employees for years. And I think particularly, you know, when there wasn’t, you know, as I said before, during that kind of aftermath of the financial crisis, there wasn’t as much mobility in terms of role. So it came down to fashion or development being important, I think we’re going to see that grow. As we kind of move through post pandemic, I think there’s going to be a slight shift, I think there’s going to be an increasing focus on professional development, and career development routes. But I think there’s also going to be a real focus on psychosocial development. And what I was told us what psychosocial was gonna say, and what I mean by that is, I already know what questions you’re gonna ask me, I started a term I know, I’m gonna get get grilled, Jess, psychosocial development. So these are things that are, I guess, but you might have called them more things like soft skills previously? Or how to just how to navigate the working environment? How do we communicate? How do we negotiate? How do we build relationships? How do we influence? How do we create work that is meaningful, that has purpose? Do we know what brings purpose and meaning to our people? And how are we connecting that to their professional development? I think there’s going to be a lot more, I guess, and I hate to throw around the word but a bit more strategy around professional development, I think we’re gonna see clear routes of development for people. And again, that links back to my first prediction, you need to understand the competencies, people need to do that job to be able to develop them effectively, to do that translate into performance. So I think competencies are going to be commonly frameworks are going to be much more talked about in small businesses, I think we’re going to see an increase in things like sabbaticals, and stretch projects, or upskilling opportunities. And equally, I think we’re focusing on professional development, we also need to focus on succession planning, because the whether that be an employee moving into another role internally, or whether it be them leaving to an external role, it’s going to leave it it’s gonna leave a hole. And we already know that that five retirement is going to continue. So I think succession planning is going to be really important as well, as I mentioned before, you know, those two, three years of COVID really did a number on all of us, in terms of our communication skills or interpersonal skills. And I think that’s where we saw kind of the pushback I had had, I guess a lot of the pushback of coming back to the office was a lot of people going, Oh, I’d rather not the politic, the office politics and all that bullshit now. Thanks. So I think I think we’ve all struggled, but again, you know, the people that were joining the workforce during COVID, missed out on all that missed out on all that that aspect of onboarding of knowledge sharing of informal mentoring and coaching. So I think, yeah, that’s my, my prediction is that professional development is going to be a big thing. And it’s going to be a really a strategic thing, and 2023.

Al Elliott  28:11  
Now, what’s interesting is that a lot of these things you’re saying almost feel like smaller businesses are borrowing ideas from larger, more established businesses. We talked a few episodes ago about Project Aristotle, from Google, it used to be that you go, Oh, they’re a big business. So they do all this stuff. And we’re a small business, therefore, we go and do all this stuff. But the couple advantages of looking at the larger companies, for ideas is exactly what he answered, there is a bit more strategy around it a bit more tax grounded, but also, you’ve got the flexibility of being a small business and that you’ve got 20 3040 employees, you can implement something by next week. Whereas IBM, what we’re quarter million people working around the country around the world, they’re gonna take six months, six years to implement something. So I think by looking towards the bigger people looking towards those who are doing it, who are doing right and may have, they may have a bigger budget than you, but what can you learn from them, that you can promote your own business?

Leanne Elliott  29:08  
Absolutely. And how many examples could you pull from sales marketing now? Where were your boring nose big those ideas from bigger organisations applying and in their organisation, There must be hundreds of examples of things in marketing that small businesses have leveraged and seen big success from

Al Elliott  29:23  
100% 100%. And when you look at someone who’s got a bigger budget, they’ve got more chance to they got more chance to experience it to experiment with something but also they’ve got this like corporate ego where they want to talk about all the changes they’ve made. Great. Let’s read those blog posts. Let’s read them read that report. And that still relentlessly shamelessly from them anything

Leanne Elliott  29:43  

Al Elliott  29:46  
So your number four,

Leanne Elliott  29:48  
so yeah, my prediction I think professional development so investing in somebody’s professional development in their personal development and in their whole person development to aid their that Personal and professional ambitions, professional development is going to be huge in 2023.

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