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Ep19: 2023 Predictions in People & Culture (Part 2 of 2)

In the second part of our predictions series, Al & Leanne make their predictions about what will happen in the world of People & Culture in 2023.

In the second part of our predictions series, Al & Leanne make their predictions about what will happen in the world of People & Culture in 2023.

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In this episode, we cover:

  • Why transparency is going to be vital in 2023
  • How we can use technology to manager burnout
  • What role wearables might have in well-being
  • How a culture of well-being could reduce salary expectations
  • How hybrid and remote working will change in 2023
  • What we should do in terms of diversity & inclusion
  • The single best investment you can make in your team

Part 1 is available here, or search your favourite podcast player.


All the links mentioned in the show.

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The Transcript

⚠️ NOTE: This is an automated transcript, so it might not always be 100% accurate!

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Leanne Elliott  0:00  
But I think that’s the interesting thing, isn’t it? With all the different technology available right now? How can we use it for good?

Al Elliott  0:11  
Hello, and welcome to the truth lies and workplace culture Podcast, the podcast that aims to simplify the science of people. My name is Allah business owner. My name is Leanne. I’m a Business psychologist. And so if you are brand new here, then you’ll see that we are cover basically anything to do with workplace culture and people. Leanne is definitely the expert in this. So there’s a lot of stuff that will Leanne will be talking about, but I’ve got experience in terms of the actual practical application of running businesses, etc, managing people. And so we are going on to part two, I think today, aren’t we? We are part two of predictions for 2023 and people in culture. If you are joining us at Part Two, you rebel, I like you already. You can go back to listen to part one if you want. And then and then come back. Well, we’ll wait just hit pause.

Leanne Elliott  0:58  
But if if not just dive into this one, why not? And then go back. There are no rules here. There’s no rules, you can do whatever you want when you’re in our house, as long as you take your shoes off and put the toilet seat down. Okay.

Al Elliott  1:11  
So should we quickly go through the six predictions we made in part one, and then we’ll go on to our I think we’ve got seven in this one. We do, though. Do you want to kick things off here?

Leanne Elliott  1:19  
Yeah, our first prediction was the fight for talent will continue. But it will shift to a more sustainable competency based strategy or no more, go back. And listen.

Al Elliott  1:30  
Number two, I think was Leann come up with this one was about talent retention. And she’s saying essentially, that there’s going to be a shift from the fight for talent, the attraction to actually retaining employees and trying to get people to stay rather than just looking for the next big shiny person.

Leanne Elliott  1:46  
Yes. And number three, which was actually ours was an increased collaboration between people and culture teams, and sales and marketing teams. There are lessons we can learn from each other as knowledge to share. So that was Prediction number three.

Al Elliott  2:01  
But number four was the Leanne’s was one of the hands and she was saying that this is going to be the year for professional development, we’re going to see a lot more people who are into professional development, and companies are willing to invest in professional development.

Leanne Elliott  2:12  
Yeah, it’s been a massive source of competitive advantage in 2023 investment in professional development and prediction, number five, AI, specifically, AI coaches as a first line of defence in terms of employee wellbeing and burnout, a really interesting point I’ll make there.

Al Elliott  2:31  
And then finally, Leanne, suggesting that the year in 2023, along with personal professional development will be that people will have coaches, there’ll be a lot more people who are getting coaches for lots of different things. And so it’ll be the year of the coach, year as a coach. Yes, the Chinese New Year of the coach. So do you want to kick off with your first prediction for or what not your first but this will be the now the seventh prediction for people and wellbeing and engagement and all that good stuff in 2023, I was a bit of a bit of a clumsy introduction. Do you wanna just crack straight into it?

Leanne Elliott  3:05  
carry on watching. If you’re in the UK, or indeed if you just enjoy watching BBC television from wherever you are in the world, there is a an episode of sasta kitchen run like a new year when we actually watched after the New Year. Very funny. What’s the guy’s name on it? Allen, Tom Allen. So funny. But he said his mantra for 2023 is sit down and shut up.

We can’t do that literally, because we wouldn’t have a podcast. But in terms of fumbling, I think that should just be it. I would just you know what, over tea, I’m not gonna sit down and shut up.

Al Elliott  3:37  
So I’m gonna sit down, shut up and listen. So what is your seventh prediction?

Leanne Elliott  3:42  
My second prediction, hybrid working and flexible working is here to stay. I’m sorry, guys, if you don’t like it, and you’re not on board with it. I think 2023 is going to be the year you’re gonna have to start to buy into it. It is here to stay. I think that we are going to see more more patterns embedded of hybrid work, I think organisation has start to figure out exactly what it is that that works for them. And in terms of hybrid, but I think it’s here to stay. The employees have spoken and hybrid and flexible working is something they want in terms of here to stay I think I think there will be a bit more of a shift back to the office. I think we will see probably 40% of the working week happened from the office. But importantly, to make this work, I think there needs to be intention behind why employees are being called back into the office. Yeah, we know onboarding can be more challenging, but we did it during the pandemic. We know that knowledge sharing and collaboration can be more challenging, challenging, but again, we’ve made that work. That said, if you’re finding in your business, that you’re not getting the same level of knowledge sharing, you’re not getting the same level of creativity and innovation happening within your teams. And he feel that bringing people back to the office is a way that to enable that fine But make sure you actually enable it when you’re in the office, don’t just use it as an excuse and then not do anything with it. And I think this is going to have such a big impact, both in terms of employees wanting to engage in work in the office again, and but also in terms of leaders actually, actually seeing them the impact on what they’re missing. So I think you’re probably as well having one day a week where people are wonder fortnight even where people need to come back into the office. But that will be for very specific activities, specific conversations that need to happen. And yeah, and you’ll see the impact from those, I think, I think is going to be key to talent, attraction, and retention, which we talked about in the last episode. But again, I think it’s going to have to link to culture. And I think, I think we’ve mentioned this on another episode. But if hybrid and remote working, isn’t currently working for you, it’s probably indicating that something within your culture, that’s not quite working, right. Either people don’t have the right purpose, people don’t have clarity over their role and not being supported by their colleagues or managers, it’s more than likely going to be one of the seven foundations of culture that we talked about in the RX seven. Again, if you haven’t listened, go back to episode which one we talked about that, I come and wrap it in the show notes, Stephen, on how to build great teams psychological safety, we go through the seven foundations there. But basically, we’ve developed this framework to help leaders and businesses identify where the sticking points might be in the business where the hotspot risk areas might be. And if hybrid and remote working isn’t currently working for you, I would argue it indicates some kind of challenge you’re experiencing within your culture right now. So my advice would be to figure that out first, and then figure out your policy around remote and hybrid working. And in terms of flexible working, I think this is also going to be very important. So you know, is that? Is that working day fixed? Is it a nine to five? Is it an EIGHT till four? Is it a 10? till six? Can people go out for a run in the morning and sit down at their desk get half past nine? Can they do a wash during the day? Can they have a hair appointment during the day? All these different types of flexible work, I think will be a conversation as well. And I think we’re gonna see that extend to frontline workers. So knowledge based roles. And in particular, I think things like more input into their sheduled into their shifts, more fixed schedules, potentially, I guess, allowing that flexibility within roles that aren’t as easily flexible. I think we’re gonna we’re gonna see that and 2023.

Al Elliott  7:37  
Yeah, I mean, hybrid work isn’t isn’t a new thing. If you know anything about other people, the makers of Basecamp, which are now called Basecamp, or work or 37 signals. They were distributed across the world in lots of different times. And there’s, there’s I know, HubSpot have quite a similar sort of strategy at first, yeah, remote first. So it’s not a new thing. It can work. It was enforced on a lot of people and like anything, it was enforced. And so we had this adjustment period, where you’ve had 18 months now to adjust to it. And it’s what most employees want. So, you know, why are we trying to fight it? We should definitely be thinking about that.

Leanne Elliott  8:14  
Yeah, I think similarly, there are, there are employees as well, that want to be back in the office, but they want to be back in the office for specific reasons. They want to be there to build relationships with their team members, they want to learn from their leaders, they want to be coached, they want to feel like they’re part of something bigger, that purpose is going to be really important. So yeah, I think there are going to be employees that want to back in the office. But again, it’s the intention behind that, that it’s gonna be so important. 2023.

Al Elliott  8:42  
So that brings me on nicely to Prediction number eight, which is mine, which is going to be a lot more transparency, all the should be a lot more transparency in a business. Now, whether it’s, I mean, why originally thought about this in terms of revenues, profits, we’ve both worked with clients who have who are fanatical about keeping it secret. And you know, we don’t make any money, we don’t make any money yet. A fairly simple calculation, by looking at their prices and how much they pay their employees. Anyone can work out that they are actually stacking fat stacks. I think the kids call it they’re making they’re making bank they’re making bag. So really, I don’t know where it leads me. I’m sure one of them might be from Breaking Bad. Anyway. So I think the whole point is that transparency is that if you have the balls to say, look, we’ll just share with everyone what our revenue is this quarter what our profit margins are this quarter. I’m not saying necessarily sharing what other people have been getting paid. Although if you want to be brave. I mean, that’s there’s some What was that guy who, who basically everyone on the same salary include themselves. I think it’s about 70 to $70,000 a year or something ever went on it. The company has just increased tenfold, 20 fold in terms of revenue, profits, all that kind of stuff. But my point is about transparency. I think that if you don’t have transparency, See, then you have resentment. And if you go on to Reddit, for example, I mean, I’m sure you know what Reddit is. But basically, it’s sort of a big online forum that’s been going on for about 1520 years. And there’s an entire like, they call them sub Reddits. It’s kind of like a topic, which is called anti work. And the whole idea that is that people are like, employees are boasting about how they get away with not doing the work they’re supposed to do, or how they find shortcuts and stuff. And there’s such a, there’s such a feeling of awesome them of, you know, you’ll see someone going, Oh, well, I saved the company load of money in the first comment, which will be voted be like, Oh, I bet the owners don’t share it with you. You know, and you don’t know that situation that maybe they did. But the whole point is that I think a lot of employees feel it’s an awesome them situation. And just by being transparent with everything, then everything you can be then trusting people with the numbers and trusting them to make the right decisions on that. I mean, I think that’s why is that not a good idea?

Leanne Elliott  10:59  
I agree. I think transparency is so important in breeding trust, and creating psychological safety. And coming back to it again, we’ve talked about this so much recently creating these adult to adult relationships. Well, you know, we’ll, we’ll speak to some some businesses and business leaders, and they’ll say things like, Oh, I just can’t trust people to get the job done. Or I’m constantly battling so and so. Or I just want them to behave like adults. And it’s like, are you treating them like adults? Are you sharing where the business currently is? And the challenges it’s currently facing? Or are you hiding things from them, and that is, like you say, it’s going to it’s going to breed mistrust, it’s going to breed resentment, and an adult to child relationship, you can’t have it both ways. If you want to not be transparent, and keep everything very close to you. These are the behaviours that you can expect from your employees. And it might be that in some environments, that will work. I can’t think of one because I don’t think it does. But yeah, realistically, transparency is, is so important, I think.

Al Elliott  12:04  
I think one of the one of the seven RS and RX seven is reason. And if everyone knows the reason why they’re doing what they’re doing on a macro scale, like what we’re doing as a business, even the point of why am I inputting all this data into an Excel spreadsheet? What’s my reason for doing this? If you transparent button going, Look, this is what this is gonna do is potentially find one more contract that the sales guys are gonna go through with this 100 to 100 people who bought through and one of them might be worth a million vouchers, which will, which will mean that we can employ employ six more people and X, Y and open this nope, not. You know, it’s just transparency. And I think I think just lets the unsaid treat them like adults, because they are adults, in most cases. And if they’re not, if they treat interact like kids continually with an adult to adult relationship, maybe that’s time to say goodbye.

Leanne Elliott  12:53  
Yeah, I think again, yeah, we talked about professional development, we talked about coaching, and this is an element of this psychosocial development we were talking about. It’s that communication, it’s that understanding, it might be that negotiation as well, if you are, you know, making a lot of profit and can’t really justify where that’s going within your own pocket. You might get a bit of kickback on that. I don’t know. But um, but yeah, I think it is. It’s, it’s, it’s fundamental, essentially, particularly with increased disruption, increasing uncertainty, we already know, we don’t like uncertainty, our brains don’t like it, we go into a threat state, that’s when we start to disengage. The fight for talent, the fight for attention is real. And I think transparency is going to play a really big role in winning both of those

Al Elliott  13:36  
battles. Brilliant. Okay, so Prediction number nine Lian.

Leanne Elliott  13:39  
Prediction number nine is wellbeing. I think we start to see this more in 2022. And already, my feed is full. And I think that’s typical of January anyway, full of lots of things around a well being and wellness and mental health. I think it is going to be the top of top of the agenda for the majority of businesses in 2023. And if you’re listening, and this isn’t on your agenda, it should be I think we’re going to see increased investment, increased measurement, increased interventions that play a central part of employer brand. But equally as I think we mentioned last time, I think leaders are going to start to invest much more in in their well being this year. And as well, you know, a holistic approach to a rounded approach to it or what some people are calling a whole person approach to it. From financial wellbeing to social well being to mental health, there’s going to be so many different elements we can support our people with we can support our managers with and we can support ourselves with as leaders, I think well being it’s going to be really important. And it’s been critical to employer brand critical to attracting talent and critical to retaining talent.

Al Elliott  14:46  
Yeah, 100% and I totally agree. This was one of the ones I came up with as well, which is not really surprising things our entire company is based on wellbeing and engagement. It was clearly that was going to pop up there but but also from it from a lack of kind of a commercial point of view. You We look at all these studies. And they say that the fifth reason why someone loves their job is the salary. So there’s four things above that is kind of almost lazy to go out, you know, well, we’ll just throw some money at the problem, and we’ll just, we’ll just hike everyone’s salaries up. So we attract the best, the best talent, that’s not going to attract the best talent that’s gonna attract the people who want the most money. And they’re not necessarily the people who are the best talent. People who, who have this shared purpose, people have a reason for doing for wanting to work somewhere, you know, they, you can go and earn a quarter million pound a year, quarter million dollars a year as an investment banker, but that’s not really the environment that most people would thrive in. And in fact, I would argue, it’s very difficult to thrive in that unless you you’ve got some kind of personality disorder, perhaps I don’t know. I mean, that’s just my personal opinion. Because I would definitely not be for me. So I think the whole idea is that well being is not just like an add on or at all, well, let’s do a bit of wellbeing, it can actually be the difference between paying someone X amount of money or x times 1.5 amount of money, because if you’ve got a great workplace culture, then you don’t necessarily need to pay the top top top whack.

Leanne Elliott  16:09  
I agree. And if you are a small to medium sized business, you are always going to, you know, be outbid by larger companies who have the resources to offer higher salaries. That’s just the way it is you need to figure out another reason and wellbeing is a really good one. In terms of throwing money at the problem, there are so many interventions, I think that businesses already have where they’re throwing money at it. They have all they used to be more pre pandemic, but nice offices with beanbags and ping pong tables, sushi Fridays, which does mind not in gym memberships, all this kind of stuff. And just though do those things enhance well being under particular circumstances. And if the if the awareness is good, and accessibility is good, yes. But what’s going to improve well being more is our set is having a clear purpose, it’s going to be helping employees connect that purpose to their individual roles. Having great managers who support should support the development of their employees, those three things alone are going to have a much bigger impact on employee wellbeing and workplace culture than anything else that I mentioned previously.

Al Elliott  17:17  
So there you go, you don’t necessarily need to throw money at the problem, you don’t necessarily need to need to pay the most amount of money to get the greatest people. So my prediction number 10, is that technology is going to help us to predict burnout. Burnout is such a big, big thing. And I think that I feel like over the last sort of 18 months, it’s become a lot more acceptable to talk about burnout. Before that I felt like you didn’t talk about burnout. People like oh, you know, always he’s off with stress. Of course he is, you know, or she’s taking this time off, can’t cope can’t cope. And I think now we’re a bit we’re having like we entered before adult conversations about burnout. Now my thought is that there’s lots of technology out there a way we can I think we can probably fashion something that will predict and measure people’s performance and predict burnout. I’m thinking now this is just sort of my thoughts, this isn’t necessarily going to be the best solution. But for example, we’ve seen a lot of reports where they monitor anonymously, people’s usage of, of emails and Microsoft apps, I think Microsoft admin centre as a way that you can monitor how much people are using it and what times and stuff? Well, if someone is, you know, sort of sending an email at five in the morning and then sending the last email at 10 o’clock at night, is that not someone who is a candidate for burnout? If we can actually do this? If we can measure this, then surely we can start to predict it. And we can start to put some kind of intervention in place. What does the psychologist think of this?

Leanne Elliott  18:45  
I agree. I agree, I think, yeah, I think I was always data is, is your starting point, collecting that data. And, but then also understanding what that data means. For example, to use your example, if somebody is working to the, you know, their work day spans 5pm to 10pm, pretty much continuously, then that is, that is a fast track to burnout. That said, if somebody has flexible working hours and is shifting their day, then it might be actually that that’s working better for them and is helping them do their job in a way that’s more sustainable for them. Maybe not exactly that exam, because you have to factor sleep into that as well. And sleep is important. And rest is important. But it’s not necessarily jumping to that conclusion. I think and, and I know you don’t want to hear this listener, I know you want a blanket, do this, it’ll be fine. But the reality is people aren’t that simple. And everyone has different circumstances and context is so important. And that is why we you know, we talked about this in the previous episode, not predictions, it’s still gonna be about collecting data, but much more focused on what does that data actually mean? How can we apply it within our business? And how can we make the right changes and measure them as well? So I think yeah, Think this is a really good way to start collecting data, especially in hybrid or remote environments where we’re not seeing people face to face as often. I think this type of data is going to be really important, so long as it is, effort is put into it to understand it. And interventions are tailored to the people tailor to the company. And the impact is measured.

Al Elliott  20:20  
Definitely, if you’re interested in burnout, then we’ve got a few episodes coming up in January, all about burnout, we’ve got some really, really good experts, we’re going to talk about burnout. And and so yeah, if you’re not subscribed, click subscribe. And that will make sure that you won’t miss those episodes. So I think we’re on to Prediction number 11, Leanne, it’s your turn.

Leanne Elliott  20:36  
We are and my prediction. My number 11 is diversity. And inclusion will continue to be a very important topic of conversation within businesses. But I think again, that that focus is going to shift to inclusion, and really how we can make sure that, you know, the diversity we have within our organisations that people feel included, people are able to contribute, people are able to bring their whole self to work. In terms of this, I think it’s going to play a big role in the fight for talent. And again, the fight for attention, I think is well, you know, if you think about being back from a talent perspective, remote and hybrid working has opened up the recruitment world, it’s opened up time talent pools, we’re no longer just looking within, you know, a certain, you know, circumference around where our place of office is, and, and what talent there is within that that catchment area, we’re looking much more broadly, we’re looking nationally, or we’re maybe even looking internationally. But with that does come a responsibility to make sure that the diversity we’re recruiting into our business, it feels included and feel supported. I think as well, the diversity conversation is going to continue to expand in scope. I think we’re going to be hearing much more. And again, I started to hear bits of this last year, but a lot more around women and people of colour in leadership teams. And as well, we know that the statistics show is that having this diversity, performance is up by 30%. Profitability is up by 35%. You know, it’s having this diversity and that translate into representation. But also diversity of thought is a huge point of competitive advantage. I think we’ll see the the scope one as well. I think what was interesting, I had a lot more about menopause last year, and women’s health a lot more. And that may well have been driven as well by the events we saw in in the US in 2022. gender identification neurodiversity? Yeah, I think it’s going to it’s going to continue to grow the conversation. I think what will be important as well, this year is going to be managing any I don’t want to say backlash, but maybe resistance to increasing diversity agendas. I think there is a feeling with with some that it can create an open them dimension. And I think that if that is the case, those conversations need to be had very openly, we need to address it. We need to learn from each other. Again, it’s an adult to adult conversation, those uncomfortable conversations. But what are your thoughts? How is it as a straight white male? How do you feel the diversity conversation is impacted you?

Al Elliott  23:14  
straight white, middle aged male? I think the kids call me a gammon. That’s my name. Yeah, I think it’s some I think it’s felt up until a couple of years ago, more like a PR play. And I felt that I think that people go well, I have to do this. And now people are understanding that first of all, thanks to the likes of tic toc and stuff. You there’s a lot more people who are on all kinds of spectrums who you’ll see getting a lot you’re seeing a lot more there’s one guy who’s got Tourette’s who’s on who’s on tick tock and I follow quite a lot. He’s his stuff. I think actually, I probably follow on YouTube shows up to over tick tock, but he’s just the kind of I think was just normalises the idea of Tourette’s, for example, whereas 10 years ago, that would have been Oh, it’s funny. He’s got Tourette’s. And now it’s just like, oh, okay, a bit of a bit more about that. So I think there’s that. But there’s also the idea that, once you once you do the diversity play, then there’s lots and lots of different qualities and experiences and skills that people bring. And then you do the inclusion. And then it’s like what we should all we all want to feel included, regardless of, of how we present or whatever we want to feel included. So I think it’s got that double edged that you’re going to get more diverse talent, therefore more diverse talents. And also everyone is going to feel included, and therefore let’s look I mean, let’s be honest, that the millennials and the Gen Zed, they are much more open about presenting however they want to present if they then communicate with the company and find that there’s someone who they I’m using inverted commas are like them, then, you know, there’s a goodwill going on there. So is that there’s also a marketing and sort of customer success play on that.

Leanne Elliott  24:51  
Yeah, I agree. Inclusion is so important. Again, it comes back to this ability to bring your whole self to work which you know, support well. well being, which supports creativity and innovation and sports performance. And this isn’t to, to mark it as a PR exercise or, you know, a commercial opportunity. But the reality is organisations that that are good at diversity inclusion do perform better, because people can use all of their skills or their talents, and they can operate in an environment where they feel safe to do so. So it doesn’t make a difference. So, so yeah, I think it’s gonna be interesting, I think we’ll definitely need to, because I think what Al and I are very aware of, and I think, you know, representation is very important in in diversity, inclusion discussions, and we are white, and we are middle aged. You’re not quite but not far off,

Al Elliott  25:40  
don’t look a day over.

Leanne Elliott  25:43  
So, you know, we’re not the authority in this and we’re gonna we’re gonna bring in people who are and we can learn from as well and, and help to educate us and and our listeners as well. But yeah, I think it’s going to be a very interesting landscape for diversity inclusion in 2023. And hopefully some really positive shifts as well.

Al Elliott  26:00  
Do you know you make a really, really good point, there’s something I hadn’t considered till you just said it was that diversity, inclusion probably isn’t going okay, I’m going to add one more thing to our company charter is that we’re going to be diverse and inclusive this in 2023. If you are a couple, and a lot of weirdly, a lot of a lot of our listeners tend to be coupled, running a business. If you’re a couple, you’re both white, you’re both straight. How can you possibly how can you possibly understand the difficulties? And how can you possibly implement something with a little bit of external help? So I think, go and find people, you can go and find consultants, but you can probably also look inwardly in your team and say, Look, we are trying to be a bit more, you know, a bit more inclusive, a bit more divergent, divergent, divergent, was quite hard to conjugate that. Diversity is exactly the word I’m looking for. So perhaps go and speak to your teams, I go, Look, you know, anyone got any friends, if you’re not, you know, if you don’t represent one of these, particularly if you’ve got any friends who can come in and help us, so I think it’s don’t try don’t feel like you have to go off and just go, I’m gonna go and do this. If you don’t have like, Leanne, and I don’t have the skills to be able to do this. We’re gonna go get someone to come and help us do it.

Leanne Elliott  27:08  
Yeah, I agree. And I think it is about, I think some of the uncomfortableness and I think, again, as I said, some of that, that resistance can be a case of or I’m afraid of asking a question in case I offend somebody or I get something wrong. And, and I think that’s one cool that you’re thinking that way, because it’s really important that you are mindful about what you say, and how you act equally, people aren’t gonna expect you to get it right all the time. Because often, you know, as someone else’s right is different to somebody else’s, in terms of, of all sorts of different things. And Alan, I’ve made mistakes as well with, you know, within our network personally and professionally, we’ve we’ve made mistakes, and we’ve had conversations about it. We’ve We’ve educated luckily enough, we have, you know, people within within our network and friends who are who are willing to sit there and and educators, and we’re better for it. So I think yeah, and I think that’s, that’s going back to that, you know, inclusion is going to be really about having those conversations, tackling any, you know, pockets of resistance within your organisation and really starting to think about what does it really mean to be a diverse and inclusive organisation?

Al Elliott  28:15  
And just being curious, I think, if you’re unemployed, if you’ve started your own business, then you’re curious about something you’ve been curious, you’ve gone, I don’t know how this works, I’m gonna go and work out how it works. And you’re gonna ask questions and learn, and it’s not been something that you’ve learned overnight. So don’t put too much pressure on yourself. And as Leanne said, I think people will, if you do make mistakes, if you do miss gender, or you do you do say something, you know, just make sure people know that you’re open to being told that’s not cool. And this is the reason why. And like the analytic before going ask people, the majority of people who we know who fit into this DNI sort of like, I don’t know how to category, they would love to sit down and explain to you why they believe certain things, why they present a certain way. They’re perfectly happy to talk about it. And so just don’t be afraid to ask.

Leanne Elliott  29:04  
Yep, I agree. And I think I think the only thing that my mind, say if you are a business owner, and you’re looking around your organisation, and everyone is fitting a similar demographic, might be worth getting in touch with an expert in diversity, inclusion, just having that initial conversation. Because I think, I mean, from one perspective, you might be alienating people within your business if they are within a very small minority, and they might not be able to, you know, not experiencing that psychological safety. Or it might be as well you’re missing out on huge opportunities also to bring different strengths and skills and and outlooks into the business. So if you’re, if you’re looking around and everyone’s kind of looking the same, that might be something to put on your, your 2023 agenda.

Al Elliott  29:51  
Definitely. Brilliant. Okay, so my phone Well, my final one, which is the penultimate one, number 12 is a prediction around wearables now. This is a bit of a difficult one. And I don’t have all the answers around this when I say a wearable, I mean something like an apple watch or Samsung watch something that monitors your body in some way. Now, it just seems that if there’s a way in which we can monitor our employees stress levels or, or vital signs through wearables, there must be a way in which we can, we can ensure that we can, we can step in when some when something’s going wrong. Now, the reason why I’m stammering a bit on this because it’s I don’t have this is not a fully formed thought. There’s lots of privacy issues to do to go around here. But I want to talk a little bit for a second about vitality, which is an insurance company, I think that’s South African. And we spoke to someone from veterans in these interviews coming up in the next couple of episodes. And what’s really interesting about their their insurance model, is that most insurance companies, they have a big department, and they pay them a lot of money to defend the claims. So their entire job is to try not to pay out on a claim and they’ll do everything they can to avoid it. Whereas what vitality are doing, instead of going defence, they’re going preventative. So what they’re trying to do is prevent the claims in the first place by giving people the tools to be healthier, to be happier to avoid the claim through or I mean, you avoid getting ill in the first place, I suppose what it really boils down to. So this is not a fully formed thought, I don’t know there are people out there far cleverer than I who are going to be able to work this one out. But surely, if we are able to monitor someone’s blood pressure someone’s movement, where they are, etc, etc, then, as long as we don’t use that for any kind of nefarious, like purpose to track them, as long as we use it in a way in which is actually genuinely there to help them. I can’t ever think there’s something around this now. Why? What’s your thoughts about this in terms of in terms of like the validity of this or even just these intrusion ideas?

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